Black Giant question

I recently examined a collection prior to auction. The collector liked big pens. Included in the collection were fifteen Black Giants and one Red Giant (albeit with a repro cap).

About seven or eight of the BGs had broken lucky curves. Only about five had complete clip rings. The balance had split rings, no clip or a repro clip.

Certainly BGs weren't sold with split rings, right? If not, what accounts for the lack of complete clips? Were they sold sans clip?

Incidently, I never thought I'd say, "Jeez, I'm tired looking a of Black Giants.", but I did.

JJ

I recently examined a collection prior to auction. The collector liked big pens. Included in the collection were fifteen Black Giants and one Red Giant (albeit with a repro cap).

About seven or eight of the BGs had broken lucky curves. Only about five had complete clip rings. The balance had split rings, no clip or a repro clip.

Certainly BGs weren't sold with split rings, right? If not, what accounts for the lack of complete clips? Were they sold sans clip?

Incidently, I never thought I'd say, "Jeez, I'm tired looking a of Black Giants.", but I did.

JJ

Hi,

By split ring, I assume you mean a seemingly broken back of washer in the washer-clip? Not split or double cap-ring trim?

I've seen plenty BG's with split clip ring. That does not address originality of course. There do seem to be dedicated monster washer clips that work with BG's. Others seem to be chopped in back, reportedly (I've not tried to do one to see if the shape would still work) representing modified Parker 28 (or even Duofold?) clips.

While modified smaller clips might not make us happy, I'm not clear such could not be original. Perhaps more pens than clips made at the time, noting that any pen any size of this style has removable top piece allowing addition/removal of clip. Dealers or even Parker could have clipped and opened washers from smaller pens to accommodate. Then we can parse "original" if such was done by Dealers not released in that fashion by factory.

I've not heard of this causing much grief or value hit, but I don't deal regularly in BG's, so other views are invited.

BTW- next time you find a monster collection, if you want to partner on it... give yell

d

John, just as an aside, I just sent you a PM about the inability to log into the PCA website because of recent changes they made. I was hoping to reference some items in the Library in support of my comments below, but I can't. So some of the stuff below will be from memory.

The Black Giant was basically the largest Jack Knife Safety and as a result, was sold pretty much the way the rest of the models were sold. The 1918 catalog shows the BG without a clip, but I realize that this doesn't necessarily mean anything because it could be a marketing slip on the image. However, most (not all) of the other Jack Knives in the catalog show a clip. The clip in all cases is noted to be $0.25 extra. There is no distinction on size, meaning a clip for a model 20 would cost the same as a clip for a model 28. In addition, the 1920 magazine ad that I have (see below) specifically states that the clip was extra on the BG, again the same as the other Jack Knives. It really wasn't until the Duofold where the clip was standard equipment.

The split clip has often been suggested to be an aftermarket addition by pen shops that had a BG in stock without a clip when someone wanted a clip. I'm torn on this one. While I can't imagine that Parker would think that an incomplete clip would be a great idea to put on a pen from the factory, I also think that the sheer number of split clips out there couldn't all be aftermarket additions. How would all those pen shops come up with the same idea at roughly the same time? In addition, I would think that there would be some evidence of this bending of a smaller clip to get around the washer clip screw in the cap, yet the couple that I've specifically examined didn't really show this. Did you see this in any of the ones you looked at?

So where does that leave us, subject to your questions? We have the following:

1. The BG was sold without clips unless ordered for an additional charge. So we should see pens out there without clips.

2. The solid clips are most certainly factory equipment.

3. The split clips are still up in the air. If you could still get closeup photos of the split clips in that collection, it would help the analysis greatly. We would specifically want to see the ends of the ring where the splits are (to see the quality of the finish of the split) and the point where the ring meets the clip itself, to see if there is any notable bending that would indicate that a smaller clip was bent open.

This is a great topic that I hope we can keep moving to a good resolution.

I've seen plenty BG's with split clip ring. That does not address originality of course. There do seem to be dedicated monster washer clips that work with BG's. Others seem to be chopped in back, reportedly (I've not tried to do one to see if the shape would still work) representing modified Parker 28 (or even Duofold?) clips.

While modified smaller clips might not make us happy, I'm not clear such could not be original. Perhaps more pens than clips made at the time, noting that any pen any size of this style has removable top piece allowing addition/removal of clip. Dealers or even Parker could have clipped and opened washers from smaller pens to accommodate. Then we can parse "original" if such was done by Dealers not released in that fashion by factory.

I've not heard of this causing much grief or value hit, but I don't deal regularly in BG's, so other views are invited.

I was typing while your reply hit David, so we crossed over the wires.

Your first point of modified clips is the same that I addressed. However, I would not think Duofolds as a source, as the Duofold was only sold with a gold filled clip while the BG was available only during the era when Jack Knives had nickle clips only. The GF clip because an option on Jack Knives in the early 20s, but the BG was out of the line by then. A GF clip on a BG would stand out and would definitely be incorrect.

I can only comment about my perceived value of a split clip versus a full clip. In my mind, I would pay less for a split clip pen unless we can prove that they're factory original. Again, that's just me.

I can only comment about my perceived value of a split clip versus a full clip. In my mind, I would pay less for a split clip pen unless we can prove that they're factory original. Again, that's just me.

Hi John,

Note I wrote with deliberately in somewhat non-specific fashion , "I've not heard of this causing much grief or value hit, but I don't deal regularly in BG's, so other views are invited."

Paying less for split clip of course is not incompatible with "not... causing... much.... value hit".

This entire issue of course gets into the same challenge set of how much is the value of any feature along with how much does any given issue add/subtract to the gestalt of a pen, which is a sum (but not always a linear sum) of its parts.

Few would object to a clipless Black Giant (they were, as you note, offered that way formally). What is the value difference of a clip vs no-clip proper BG? Generally (not always) the value difference will be swamped by condition differences between the two pens (a weak imprint dwarfs the impact of clip presence, etc). Still, we can imagine a controlled circumstance; let's say the same dealer has 2 mint stickered perfect color/imprint, same nib-point BG's, one with no clip, other with clip. How might we price the two pens? Then, how to price a third with "mint" split clip? Certainly not less than a clip-less pen, which we know can be correct.

So, at root, what is the value of a proper BG clip, BUT, can one linearly map that value as an additional value to a nice pen. Can collectors add?

At the very least, we should be able here to formally value a BG clip, in the isolated scenario that someone with a clipless pen wants to add "proper" clip.

regards

david

I can only comment about my perceived value of a split clip versus a full clip. In my mind, I would pay less for a split clip pen unless we can prove that they're factory original. Again, that's just me.

Hi John,

Note I wrote with deliberately in somewhat non-specific fashion , "I've not heard of this causing much grief or value hit, but I don't deal regularly in BG's, so other views are invited."

Paying less for split clip of course is not incompatible with "not... causing... much.... value hit".

I think we're in agreement. I hope my comment didn't come off as disagreeing with your statement, as I do not disagree.

This entire issue of course gets into the same challenge set of how much is the value of any feature along with how much does any given issue add/subtract to the gestalt of a pen, which is a sum (but not always a linear sum) of its parts.

Few would object to a clipless Black Giant (they were, as you note, offered that way formally). What is the value difference of a clip vs no-clip proper BG? Generally (not always) the value difference will be swamped by condition differences between the two pens (a weak imprint dwarfs the impact of clip presence, etc). Still, we can imagine a controlled circumstance; let's say the same dealer has 2 mint stickered perfect color/imprint, same nib-point BG's, one with no clip, other with clip. How might we price the two pens? Then, how to price a third with "mint" split clip? Certainly not less than a clip-less pen, which we know can be correct.

So, at root, what is the value of a proper BG clip, BUT, can one linearly map that value as an additional value to a nice pen. Can collectors add?

At the very least, we should be able here to formally value a BG clip, in the isolated scenario that someone with a clipless pen wants to add "proper" clip.

Agree, this gets to the heart of the matter from a value perspective. It's always going to depend on the quality of the specific pens in question and how the particular buyer perceives them. You can also layer in the variation of the short barreled BG and how that affects value relative to a long barreled pen. You don't see many of them, so they are probably scarcer. But they're also less "dramatic" than a full sized BG, so some may pay less for them.

Aside from value, I think it would be great if we here in this thread can come to an informed conclusion on whether or not the split clips are factory original or not. We've certainly got the collecting "horsepower" on this board to hopefully get there. How cool would that be?

Agree, this gets to the heart of the matter from a value perspective. It's always going to depend on the quality of the specific pens in question and how the particular buyer perceives them. You can also layer in the variation of the short barreled BG and how that affects value relative to a long barreled pen. You don't see many of them, so they are probably scarcer. But they're also less "dramatic" than a full sized BG, so some may pay less for them.

Aside from value, I think it would be great if we here in this thread can come to an informed conclusion on whether or not the split clips are factory original or not. We've certainly got the collecting "horsepower" on this board to hopefully get there. How cool would that be?

Yes that would be great. It'd also be great if I hit a Powerball jackpot (i really should play sometime)

Not an easy thing. Barring positive evidence--- perhaps a Parker memo citing usage of split clips for BG-- we are left with an anomaly and with the challenge of proving a negative ( "How can YOU be SURE Parker didn't do this. Go PROVE it"), Still, when considering vintage/antique collectables, observation does have a measure of power, even if not definitive. And, the speculation is fun

regards

david

I think we're in agreement. I hope my comment didn't come off as disagreeing with your statement, as I do not disagree.

No worries. Besides that most of the Great Pen Discussions start with some disagreement or another, I mainly wanted to clarify what I had said, as my tendency toward quadruple negatives and multiple qualifiers can leave things a bit ambiguous

-d

All this stuff about split-ring Black Giant clips being a post-factory kludge is garbage, if you ask me. Just try cutting the ring on a smaller washer-style clip and opening it up so that it both lies flat and has a regular curve.

All this stuff about split-ring Black Giant clips being a post-factory kludge is garbage, if you ask me. Just try cutting the ring on a smaller washer-style clip and opening it up so that it both lies flat and has a regular curve.

How goes that great line from Star Trek... "Don't mince words, Bones. Tell us how you really feel"

It's good to bring this info out, and must be five years or more since a real discussion of this subject popped up anywhere. David, then, favors "split clips are original"

-d

For those who wonder what we're discussing, the Black Giant...

In scale, here are the long and short Parker Black Giant pens (1915-1920 or so), next to what generally is considered an oversized pen, the striped Parker Vacumatic Senior Maxima (late 1930's)

regards

david

I mainly wanted to clarify what I had said, as my tendency toward quadruple negatives and multiple qualifiers can leave things a bit ambiguous

I swear, David, I don't know which is drier, your wit or my martinis, but I like them both!

All this stuff about split-ring Black Giant clips being a post-factory kludge is garbage, if you ask me. Just try cutting the ring on a smaller washer-style clip and opening it up so that it both lies flat and has a regular curve.

I'm with you David. That's why I asked about seeing photos of split washer clips to see if there were any bends in them.

So now the question is "when do they date from?" There would be no reason for both styles to be made at the same time.

All this stuff about split-ring Black Giant clips being a post-factory kludge is garbage, if you ask me. Just try cutting the ring on a smaller washer-style clip and opening it up so that it both lies flat and has a regular curve.

I do agree with David's physics argument, but I keep going back to why Parker would do this. It seems way too fragile and bad looking to boot.

Probably never know.

I did briefly review an old Stylus article by Carter/photos by David I about big pens. Carter seemed to imply that most BGs were sold without clips. Also that there is much subtle variation in virtually all aspects of the BGs (size, threading, imprints, sections, feeds and nibs). So much that pieces aren't always interchangeable. He speculates that this might be due to multiple machine setups resulting from very small production runs. Wish I had read this before the auction as I could have done a quick study to challenge/support this assertion.

Below are some photos of my BG clip. I thought I would add them here since a thread about BG clips showed up on the "WTB" forum.

back a few years ago, I found a replacement black giant clip for my short model black giant. It was a replated NOS clip, and the seller had two of them. Since then, the second clip was sold, and for the life of me, I can't find my split clip anywhere. I truly believe my pen came with a split clip, and someone replaced it circa 2010. The way the split clip fit, leads me to believe that this might have been a factory job, it fit too well, and the strength of the clips, would make it somewhat difficult for someone like you or me to simply cut one, and bend it to fit. it would have been a heated, and some kind of mandrel affair. just a guess.