opinions on Swann's first pen auction

I don't know if anyone looked at the results or was present for Swann's first pen auction but I'd love to hear your thoughts, either through post or backchannel. I found some of the numbers quite interesting.

I don't know if anyone looked at the results or was present for Swann's first pen auction but I'd love to hear your thoughts, either through post or backchannel. I found some of the numbers quite interesting.

Speaking as the fellow in person who probably spent the most at the auction (some phone/net players might have done more), who had dinner out with bunch of old and new pen friends, and who scored some monsters for my collection... I had a grand time.

I will post more a bit later, and will offer images of pens in couple weeks.

But, coming home with the all gold-filled Chilton, which I've known since Gerry Gerard owned it (I shot it back around 2003) made the visit well worthwhile for me. And.. so much more...

regards

david

I don't know if anyone looked at the results or was present for Swann's first pen auction but I'd love to hear your thoughts, either through post or backchannel. I found some of the numbers quite interesting.

Speaking as the fellow in person who probably spent the most at the auction (some phone/net players might have done more), who had dinner out with bunch of old and new pen friends, and who scored some monsters for my collection... I had a grand time.

I will post more a bit later, and will offer images of pens in couple weeks.

But, coming home with the all gold-filled Chilton, which I've known since Gerry Gerard owned it (I shot it back around 2003) made the visit well worthwhile for me. And.. so much more...

regards

david

Congrats on your buys. Looking forward to hearing more.

I and a few others discussed this on FPN.


Here's my take.


I thought going into the auction that the expected prices were more than fair.

There were a lot of bargains to be had. I kind of expected this. It didn't help me since for strange reason there was good action on the four pens I bid on. I won all four but the interest on the pens I bid on was unexpected.

Modern pens still seem to do better than vintage pens. More of the moderns seem to have sold within the expected range. The one Bonham's auction of vintage pen was equally soft.

According to FredRydr who was at the auction, the liveliest part of the auction was the vintage MB pens. Seems like there was a phone bidder who was determined to acquire many of the early MB pens.

I was surprised at the interest in the vintage Italians. Some went for low numbers but most were sold. I did thought there would be interest in the vintage Omas pens but not the vintage Columbus pens.

I feel bad for Bill since the Chiltons were very soft.


Unfortunately, my custom Danitrio pens arrived two weeks ago and that cut severely into my auction budget. I would have spent a lot more since there were bargains to be had.

Edited by AltecGreen, 16 September 2012 - 04:20 AM.

I and a few others discussed this on FPN.


Here's my take.


I thought going into the auction that the expected prices were more than fair.

There were a lot of bargains to be had. I kind of expected this. It didn't help me since for strange reason there was good action on the four pens I bid on. I won all four but the interest on the pens I bid on was unexpected.

Modern pens still seem to do better than vintage pens. More of the moderns seem to have sold within the expected range. The one Bonham's auction of vintage pen was equally soft.

According to FredRydr who was at the auction, the liveliest part of the auction was the vintage MB pens. Seems like there was a phone bidder who was determined to acquire many of the early MB pens.

I was surprised at the interest in the vintage Italians. Some went for low numbers but most were sold. I did thought there would be interest in the vintage Omas pens but not the vintage Columbus pens.

I feel bad for Bill since the Chiltons were very soft.


Unfortunately, my custom Danitrio pens arrived two weeks ago and that cut severely into my auction budget. I would have spent a lot more since there were bargains to be had.

Good insight into the auction, thanks.

SInce my area of collector focus is chiltons, I think I can offer some insight on that section of the auction. I personally feel that the really "great" pens sold reasonably well for these economic times. Let's face it, Chilton is not a big four, and the overall collector appeal is limited. There are few people that collect at the level that Bill did. trying to achieve a color example and size, and inlay pattern of each pen. Even in my earlier attempts with Chiltons, I did not collect at that level. I did feel that what I considered the *most* desireable pieces brought the proper prices. The clown, the blue golden quill, the cherry red wingflow (K5S) set, the GF wingflow set. they all brought the prices they should have. What did not sell? the pencils, the ringtops, the early boston HR pens, These are all pens I have shy'd away from in my collecting endeavors. I wish I could have gone to the auction with a more sizeable bankroll, but like I tell Isaacson all the time, hey, I'm a poor man in a rich man's hobby. I set my sights on 4 pens (all of which were pens I once owned, and sold to Bill) and the one I wanted the most was the one in my mind I was least likely to get. Turned out, that I did not get the burgundy and black marble long island 6 size pen, or the 156 pen and pencil set (burgundy marble red vein) or the blue golden quill (which I had 5 years in putting together) but I did get the green marble swirl wingflow, which I considered one of the great and overlooked rarities of the auction. Some great pens, were available, and perhaps 5 years ago, this would have been an auction that would be talked about for years to come, but I think it was a look into what each of us as collectors secretly knows inside about each of our own collections.... that is liquidate your collection and buy as many skyline yellow cab reissue pens as you can!

Regarding Bill's Chilton collection and the results of the auction: I just think this is what happens when a collector outspends everyone else in the acquisition of his pens, and then attempts to sells them back. Remember, Bill was outbidding everyone on ebay and paying retail prices from dealers/collectors for pretty much every Chilton related item he eventually owned. Essentially, he was the market maker for Chiltons back when only a handful of people collected them. There were 4 or 5 lots of Bill's in the auction that got played well because they were truly outstanding pens (GF Wingflow, Cherry red wingflow etc) but its difficult to liquidate a collection of mostly excellent but not amazing out of this world pens, especially when they were originally bought by a buyer who simply paid more than anyone else for them. It also doesn't help that the number of collectors who truly appreciate all the subtle variants of the Chilton pen company is... small.



Regards,
George

Edited by George, 16 September 2012 - 12:34 PM.

This thread points to the heart of Elements of Collecting no doubt. And it will blossom into a pinned thread (or lead to a related thread to be pinned) also no doubt. The core theme of liquidating a vintage collection we've touched on before, and I previously posted links to the sale of Kaybee's Toys' founder's toy collection, though I cannot find link now. There is too much to cover here in depth, and Paul keeps bugging me to do an article for PENnant on terminating a pen collection. One day perhaps I will. We play at least with the following.

• Congrats to Swann and to Rick Propas for a nice auction
• Is pendom a rich man's hobby?
• State of the hobby.
• Liquidating personal collections (vs building them), factors in play.
• Chiltons

1. Congrats to Rick Propas and Swann for a nice auction. The opening lot, a yellow modern Eversharp Skyline Taxi Pen LE, pulled $600, leading to whooooops, hollering and applause from the seasoned crowd, probably frightening to the auction house regarding what sort of riffraff it had let into its parlor. Frakkin' thing pulled 3x the price of various quality old pens. Ya just never know. The setting was pleasant. The Auctioneer was known to Paul as one of the experts from Antiques Road Show. The special viewing session with food and drink the night before auction, held for the Big Apple Pen Club, was well done. Dinner after the auction at an Italian spot on 44th street known to us from prior NYC Pen Shows was great. The Auction plowed through 400 real lots in fewer than 4 hours, amazing to those of us used to pen show auctions in which we cover about 70 lots in that time, usually in 50 cent increments, as bidding slows. Broken into several sections there were modern collections, Bill's Chiltons, and vintage Europens including MB, Omas, Columbus, Aurora. Many lots sold well. Others at least sold. A fair bunch saw "passes", mainly d/t reserves on vintage lots. I believe another auction will be held in Spring, and I look forward to it.

2. Contrary to Rick' Krantz's assertion, I don't see collectable pendom (certainly the old stuff) as a rich man's hobby, recognizing such things are subjective. Of course, by world standards, most Americans are rich, but that's not really the point. Compared to Coins, Stamps, Art, Toys, the high end of pendom is fairly gentle, certainly considering the number of items found at the high end. Coins have oodles of multi hundred thousand dollar (and multi million dollar) items. Art hits tens of millions of dollars. Granted, one can find old coins under a buck, but Wearevers can be found in that zone too. Any hobby should involved discretionary funds at best, and we have folks playing at minimum wage and those worth tens of millions of dollars, but the auction had plenty of $100-300 lots, hardly huge by standards of collectables.

Here are the top ten Star Wars toys sold (all made after 1975)

http://www.galacticb...rWarsItems.html

Here is a $200k Gi Joe

http://www.guinnessw...old-at-auction/

3. State of the Hobby. We hear about weak prices due to state of the hobby for pendom. I'm not convinced. While we are a bit cursed by the fragility (physical and chemical) of old pens and by the relatively small hobbyist population compared to that found with many other collectables, while prices for some series indeed are down from years past, and while pens themselves might soon be purely vintage items as the world goes electronic, I find the pen market all told to be a fairly stable thing. Many plastic mid 1930s pens (Balance, Vacumatic, Doric) seem to have stable to greater value vs ten years ago. Later Parker 51's and Sheaffer Snorkels have grown in value. Early HR and overlays are down a bit in many cases, but that might be because they simply were driven to inappropriate heights by speculation during the 1980s- early 1990s. Our hobby is new, just about a generation old, and equilibrium takes time to establish. If Chiltons (arguably) sold a bit weakly in this auction, I'm not convinced that reflects state of the hobby, though it might reflect state of the overall economy. Of course, as pens are discretionary collectables, if we end up living in mud huts in a dying economy, the drop in pen value won't matter so much anyway

It is possible that foci of collecting will migrate to ever later pens, as seems to be happening with cars. The elegant monsters of the 1920's-1930's see weakening interest, as the population that knew them as tiny kids fades. Casual reading shows greater interest in 1940's-1960's wheels now. No surprise. Pen might see similar, worrisome to those of us who like the old stuff, as we see a generation growing up now that might not even know how to hold a pen. Maybe the rise of vintage ballpoint collecting makes sense in this context.

4. Liquidating focused (or general) personal pen collections. It oft has been stated, that even putting aside issues of "how rich" is a given hobby, it often is easier to build a collection than to sell it. Whether one buys retail for each item, or hunts the wild to find bargains, a collection lovingly assembled with hefty expenditure during a 5-to-40 year stint often does not lend itself to sale to a single buyer. This is especially so for focused collections. Dealers can buy such things, but large, niche collections must be bought at heavy discount from retail, as it can take years to move it to individual collectors. If one has a massive focused niche collection, as George notes, it likely will be hard to find a (non wholesale seeking) collector who can absorb the collection in one purchase.

A diverse vintage collection with a large collector base is another story. Here is an article about the liquidation of the multi-million-dollar toy collection of the founder of Kaybee Toys. And, even with huge interest and big sales, the article does not really tell us if the items pulled "retail".

http://www.nj.com/ne...uction_mas.html

5. Chiltons. As noted above, this auction featured a world class collection of Chilton pens. I'm fond of the owner and he should feel free to chime in here. The auction demonstrated many of the challenges in liquidating focused, niche personal collections. For years 4-5 known fellows competed for these small-make, high quality pens. This auction was the liquidation of one of their collections, but most of the other fellows do not pursue pen purchases as aggressively as they did ten years ago. Indeed, when a collection is built by outcompeting the major players for such pens, and when selling when those players have eased back a bit, prices all told will be soft. A few key pens pulled strong prices. Many of the pens had at least modest issues. Even accepting the claim that a Chilton Wingflow nib once had a value of $300, what is a worn black Chilton Wingflow worth then with a cracked nib? Some pens had weak color or poor nibs or brassing, etc. I regret never having found time to visit Florida to photograph and discuss the collection, but if retail on an excellent pen was $500, what fair wholesale could I have offered for a pen with some brassing and a hairline crack in nib? Half of half? Less? The auction had suggested price ranges with reserve generally half the low range estimate, and I picked up some nice pens at that price (half of low end) and passed on some even at that. Some of us had talked about direct purchases of better pens back when, but we understood Bill' desire not to have the bunch cherry picked. Yet, with reserves in place, the collection experienced that process, only via auction. I don't begrudge weak condition pens. When one is a 'completist", scarce variants turn up in poor shape sometimes. Does one pass on said pen, waiting for the clean example that might never appear? When I find a new-to-me variant of a Sheaffer Balance with scarce off catalogue cap-band pattern, I tend to buy it, even if it worn, but I try to buy it at reasonable price.

Lessons? It's a great thing to build a world-class niche collection. But one must recognize that marketing of such a creature must be done gradually over years to see maximum revenue. Even broad based collections do better when time is not an issue. Most people though, suffering from whatever psychological defect it is that makes us collectors, tend to be unable to give up the acquisition-and-hold phase, until there unfortunately is a time-pressure to sell. Food for thought, that. Looking over my own collection, I see an impressive array of clean and desirable old pens, including some high-cachet variants. I dread what I'd have to do if I wanted to move the whole collection in a few months or at once. If I never bought another pen, I see ten years spent liquidating my collection the "proper" way. That too is food for thought.

That's probably enough for now...


regards

David

This thread points to the heart of Elements of Collecting no doubt. And...

Thanks for another stellar post, just the kind of thing (along with other authors) that makes this board invaluable to me. I appreciate your putting the prices in perspective, because I happen to be one of those that must (mostly) sit on the sidelines and watch those with more disposable income go to town. That said, your noting of both market trends and the segments of the auction that were not too dear is important for me to keep in mind. And bide my time.

Thanks David, Rick and others for your views andthoughts. I must admit that I didn't know what to expect from the auction, Ihad viewed a few pens at the DC pen show and had briefly looked over thelisting until the day before the auction when I had the time to give it a morethorough review. Despite giving it a good once over I couldn't help but feelthat some of the estimates on the Chilton’s were high. Now I say that given theconditions that they were being sold in, one being the sheer number for sale inone place at one time and that a few collectors who would normally be jumpingfor said pens were not expected to be major buyers at the auction. I did decideto bid on a dozen or more lots and did win a few pens one or two of whichshould remain in my core collection.

As for the overall prices of the pens, the prices reached by the Chilton’s didnot surprise me but having purchased a few pieces from Bill in the past it was disappointingto see that several of them did not sell. Possibly the spring auction willbring some new interest for the Chilton’s that were passed, especially forthose collectors who may be like myself, someone who has less of a focusedcollection but might enjoy having a good example or two in their collection. Ithought some of the Italian pens did very well but at the same time I thinksome of the estimates were on the conservative side. Some of the other Americanpens seemed to be a little soft as well, a few of the Waterman’s stuck out inmy mind as being a good bargain.

As for the subject of liquidating ones collection there is certainly no end ofspeculation as to how one would best accomplish the feat but I certainly thinkit depends on the size and complexity of the collection. While my personalcollection is far less organized or focused then many others it might allow meto sell it with much more ease then some but I can't help but think that in20-30 years will a Chilton be that much harder to sell then a Parker of similardesign? At the end of the day if these pens are hard to find there will alwaysbe an interest from a collector but they may struggle to come together with aprice to purchase it at or its worthwhile even a novice collector can determinewhat a big red might be worth after a short internet search.


I'd love to see pictures of some of the pens people purchased, a single picturejust doesn't do many of these pens justice!



Pearce.

A number of people in other venues have asked for a report on the recent Swann Auction Galleries sale of fine and vintage pens and I thought I'd add my perspective on the sale. I want to stress that these are my personal views and are not an official communication from Swann, although of course, I head the new Fine and Vintage Writing Instruments department at Swann and organized the sale with the support of department coordinator Marco Tomaschett.



The first forty-five lots of modern pens sold completely, showing a continued strong interest in modern and contemporary pens.



The results on the Baisden Collection of vintage Chilton Pens were a bit more mixed. The cream of this collection sold well. Overall about half the lots sold, with prices that reflected the current cautious market. There were fine prices and some bargains, both. There are a significant number of very attractive lots here that did not sell and we are taking offers on them. A rough guideline for offers would be 80% of the low estimate. Unlike other auction post-sales, the first acceptable offer takes the pen. You can see unsold lots for the entire sale online: http://catalogue.swa...chivesearch.asp
or get a list by emailing me.



The latter half of the sale showed a strong continuing interest in both Montblancs and other fine vintage pens from the major makers including Aurora, OMAS, Parker and Waterman. This portion of the sale "sold-through" at about 90% by volume. Prices were fair, showing a continuing "buyers market."



I was particularly pleased by results for the vintage Montblancs and some of the finest Italians. Those who have read the sale results have noted the very strong showing for the Parker Snake and strong results for the Aurora Asterope and Etiopia as well as the Rouge et Noir.



Folks at Swann have indicated to me that for a first sale in a new department the results were more than adequate and for this I thank my fellow members of the pen community. We will shortly be back with news of our March sale and will preview highlights for that sale at both the San Francisco and Columbus pen shows.

Rick,

I think you did well on this new venture. I look forward to making the trek again, for the next sale.

Best!
Rick

.........

Lessons? It's a great thing to build a world-class niche collection. But one must recognize that marketing of such a creature must be done gradually over years to see maximum revenue. Even broad based collections do better when time is not an issue. Most people though, suffering from whatever psychological defect it is that makes us collectors, tend to be unable to give up the acquisition-and-hold phase, until there unfortunately is a time-pressure to sell. Food for thought, that. Looking over my own collection, I see an impressive array of clean and desirable old pens, including some high-cachet variants. I dread what I'd have to do if I wanted to move the whole collection in a few months or at once. If I never bought another pen, I see ten years spent liquidating my collection the "proper" way. That too is food for thought.

That's probably enough for now...


regards

David

Friends

I came across these pens from a collector who is now liquidating his collections.

See his comments in the item descriptions :.... I am a retired Navy Commander who has been collecting vintage pens and pencils for about 30 years now. I am 70 years old knowing full well that I'm not going to make it another 70 years. I think it's time to put my entire collection up for auction where others can enjoy and appreciate them as much as I have..."



As it is pertinent to David's thoughts on how - in the end - we need to approach the issue of un-collecting when the time comes - as it surely will

Some more food for thoughts !

Tri

It's a great thing to build a world-class niche collection. But one must recognize that marketing of such a creature must be done gradually over years to see maximum revenue. Even broad based collections do better when time is not an issue. Most people though, suffering from whatever psychological defect it is that makes us collectors, tend to be unable to give up the acquisition-and-hold phase, until there unfortunately is a time-pressure to sell. Food for thought, that. Looking over my own collection, I see an impressive array of clean and desirable old pens, including some high-cachet variants. I dread what I'd have to do if I wanted to move the whole collection in a few months or at once. If I never bought another pen, I see ten years spent liquidating my collection the "proper" way. That too is food for thought.

Great post David. The entire thing, not just the part I've quoted here. But as for the quoted part, I've occasionally thought about the when and how of unwinding my collection. I like to think it will be easier to sell early Parkers than Chiltons because of the volume of Parker collectors. But the fact is that there are a much smaller subset of early Parker collectors, the focus of my collection. While the prices for these pens still seem pretty strong based on what I see on eBay and the few that were in the Swann auction, it's still very true that a slow, measured sale will maximize revenue (unless you've got a Mike Fultz type of collection). So that means defeating the psycological aspect of our personalities and sell things before we really "need" to. It does make a person think.