31 replies to this topic

[June H]

I just found this pen on my travels. Lean pickings lately. This is a carmine red I think. The clip is a wasp. 2nd tier. but It does not say so on the barrel. It has just the regular imprint of W. A. Sheaffer co. What think you.?

[Teej47]

Looks Canadian to me. Isn't that clip not unheard of on Canadian Balances?

Tim

[matt]

The cap shows up on Canadian pens. What is the imprint on the barrel and nib?

[Teej47]

The title just sunk in. This is another one of those two tone 5-30 nibs, isn't it?

I bet it says 'Made in Canada' on it.

Tim

[Kirchh]

I just found this pen on my travels. Lean pickings lately. This is a carmine red I think. The clip is a wasp. 2nd tier. but It does not say so on the barrel. It has just the regular imprint of W. A. Sheaffer co. What think you.?

An expected configuration on a Canadian pen such as this. Sheaffer of Canada was a separate company from Sheaffer US, and they had their own models.

--Daniel

[david i]

I just found this pen on my travels. Lean pickings lately. This is a carmine red I think. The clip is a wasp. 2nd tier. but It does not say so on the barrel. It has just the regular imprint of W. A. Sheaffer co. What think you.?

Hi June,

An interesting pen, mainly-- in my view-- for showing some of the differences found between Sheaffer Canada product and Sheaffer USA product.

This WASP-ish clip is well recognized on Canadian Balance-like pens to the few who care about such things, of whom I am one

There are issues still in play.

I agree with Daniel that this finding is unsurprising on a Canadian pen of this sort, but I note too that further analysis (or at least publication of analysis that might be out there already) is painfully necessary to see if this configuration suggests a specific niche/price-point/tier or what have you.

To review some of the quirky Canadian Balance findings...

1) Reverse trim pens turn up markedly more frequently than are seen on pens from USA. I have seen a significant number of pens dating to perhaps 1935 and later (based on USA dating) in full/standard girth, not gray, with chrome trim instead of the expected (based on USA pens) gold-filled trim and with gold-filled trim on gray striped pens. However, typical trim pens also are found. Reverse trim thus is an unsurprising, but still charming, finding.

2) As an aside, and pertaining to your other post about a recent Balance find, note that it is not true that chrome trim is confined only to gray colors on Sheaffer-USA pens. Starting perhaps in 1936 (Daniel might be able to clarify if earlier, say 1935) all low-tier / fourth-tier/ Junior Balance (slender short and slender long) are catalogued with chrome trim. However, by this time, the top three tiers of Balance meet our typical expectation for trim. Note too that the striped uSA Balances 1936+ have radius clip for the top two tiers, while the bottom two tiers have flat-ball clip (otherwise earlier style). Note there are other Sheaffer Balance pens that are slender that are not Junior.

3) Canadian Balance-like pens that correspond to colors seen for USA pens as of 1936+ tend to have earlier clips, relative to USA-made pens. I've seen and own striped Canadian Balances that are not fourth-tier Junior pens, but which have the predecessor to the radius clip, the flat-ball clip, and even a full-ball "hump" clip, which predates the flat-ball clip. Indeed, I am uncertain that radius clip, used for perhaps 6+ years
in the USA, was ever used in Canada.

4) Nib styes on Canadian Balance-like pens do not perfectly correlate to what appeared in the USA after 1935. 2nd tier Canadian pens tend to have 2-tone "5-30" nibs rather than "Feathertouch 5" nibs. 3rd tier pens tend to have "3-25" nibs even when the uSA had moved to #3 nibs.

5) Some slender Balance both long and short from Canada turn up with that WASP-ish clip like yours, usually with chrome trim independent of color. Often pretty worn on discovery. I remain uncertain if ALL these should have chrome trim or chrome over gold-fill as the only ones I've seen with yellow trim are seriously worn. Perhaps Daniel has examples with clean yellow trim...

6) I don't know if those pens with the WASP-ish clip represent a particular price point or market niche, manufactured in parallel with other Canadian clip styles just noted, or if they are an evolutionary tweak made for limited period of time, or even if they are limited-market, though there prevalence among all Canadian pens found would argue otherwise for that last notion. So far I've seen it only on slender pens, long and short.

7) I have not seen Canadian Balance catalogues of any sort and believe the PCA has no paper from this era from Canada in the files. Thus, so far all Canadian Balances are treated as lacking discovered documentation, and to best of my knowledge no one has admitted to having any. Of course, that might be about to change. (cue the foreboding music)

8) Daniel describes Sheaffer Canada as a separate company from Sheaffer USA. I lack any info as to just how separate they are (regarding shared directives and the like). Note that pens from other makers also show differences among international divisions. Parker's English Duofold run from the 1940's features vastly different pens from what are found in the USA.

Here is a photo of a crisp short slender Canadian Carmine Balance with chrome trim and with the WASP-like clip.

Oh yeah, and in brown, full length with "that" clip. Nicely preserved chrome trim. I remain wondering if all of this sort started out with chrome trim.

regards

David

[June H]

The title just sunk in. This is another one of those two tone 5-30 nibs, isn't it?

I bet it says 'Made in Canada' on it.

Tim

Yes, it is Canadian.

[June H]

Hello David:
I am confused by the tier thing. You say that this pen is fourth tier. This does not mean it is made with poorer quality matierals? Could you clarify this tier designation for me?

[david i]

Hello David:
I am confused by the tier thing. You say that this pen is fourth tier. This does not mean it is made with poorer quality matierals? Could you clarify this tier designation for me?

Hi June.

Truly an excellent question, touching on collector views of pens and on the pens themselves. At very least it makes me recall Frank Dubiel on the old accp giving that curmudgeonly yelp, "They're all the same, save for look and price point!", which carries significant truth for most high line vs low line pens within a given series. Caveats are found of course. But the basic notion that a 1942 Parker Vac Blue Diamond is same pen as non-Blue Diamond and that a Sheaffer Balance Lifetime (1st tier) is same pen as Sheaffer Balance Junior (4th tier) is a good starting point, and not a bad simple conclusion if one wishes not read the rest of the shmooze.

Collectors in many fields work to create schemata to stratify old collectables, making a taxonomy for items and using jargon that likely never was used by the manufacturers themselves. I talk about Parker Vacumatic 1st Generation, 3rd Generation and about Sheaffer Balance 1st Tier and 4th tier, but Parker and Sheaffer, respectively, probably didn't. So, when one newer to a given series embraces such terms, he should be aware that these are after-the-fact, and that they are not etched in stone. Better ideas can pop up to categorize pens. Too, keep in mind that these descriptions sometimes are not appropriate to the entire run of a series, so sometimes we need a couple lists to catch the entire run.

Richard has a nice short profile touching on size and color, but not iirc on tiers. Not sure about David Nishimura's page.

In defining tiers for Sheaffer Balance, note that prior to some point in 1935-36 we can find three trim/nib levels, with the "Junior" actually not a Balance but a semi-streamlined pen that looks quite like a truncated Balance, which is what many of us call it, "truncated Balance". At some point around then the Junior was incorporated into the Balance line, proper, as a true torpedo-shaped pen, yielding 4 tiers of pens for, presumably, the remainder of the run.

Let us focus on the 1936+ striated-plastic era, to keep things a bit easier.

The pens are of the same celluloid, same filler styles (I don't insist every last model was made plunger-fill), gold nibs, gold-filled trim (save for chrome on Grey Pearl pens of all lines and on all colors Junior). Same expertise. Same stuff. Not clear that Junior had chrome just because chrome was cheaper/weaker (though today we know it not to hold up as well as gold-filled) as chrome was after all used on high line pens too, and was not formally treated as 2nd quality by Sheaffer.

Keeping in mind that earlier pens saw different clip styles (the radius clip appeared in 1935), the feature set found on the pens 1936+ includes

1) 1st Tier: Lifetime warranty, White Dot in cap, Lifetime-marked nib, smooth radius clip
2) 2nd Tier. Smaller warranty (i lack details offhand), non-White-Dot cap, Featherouch-marked nib, smooth radius clip
3) 3rd Tier. Smaller warranty still (any?): non-White -dot cap, "#3 nib", "Sheaffer's" Flat-ball (earlier style) clip
4) 4th Tier. ? Warranty. Non-white dot cap. "Sheaffer Junior" nib. "Sheaffer's Jr" flat ball clip, chrome trim in all colors

There are some appearance differences and of course price difference.

All pens of a given tier are more expensive than all pens of lower tier. Different Tiers feature different ranges of size (based mainly on girth) with significant overlap though.

My guess (I've not weighed) is that even similar seeming (I have not microscoped either) nibs such as the #3 and the "Junior" in the two lower lines might have different weights of gold. The Lifetime nibs look obviously bigger than feathertouch, though again I've not weighed them. I suppose the weight of gold is a quality difference (I've always guessed- with no testing- that thinner nibs are more likely to break). But basically these are the same pen, with different trim, warranty, nib markings and size, and so forth.

Hope this helps.

david

[Joe - the pencil guy]

Hi June and Dave:

I respectfully disagree with Dave when he explains that Canadian Sheaffer pens are 4th tier. Tier, to me, has always and always will refer to the quality of the pen, 4th tier, by normal definition, is classified as a piece of junk. 1st tier is classified as the best quality. Canadian Sheaffer did not produce 4th tier junk. Arnold was a 4th tier maker of pens. Sheaffer Canada pens ( and pencils) were never 4th tier. 'Tier' has never been defined by splitting infinities and complicating it's definition. My opinion is based on 20 years in the hobby.

Joe Nemecek

[Kirchh]

7) I have not seen Canadian Balance catalogues of any sort and believe the PCA has no paper from this era from Canada in the files. Thus, so far all Canadian Balances are treated as lacking discovered documentation, and to best of my knowledge no one has admitted to having any.

Though I haven't seen Canadian Sheaffer catalogs, of course Sheaffer of Canada advertised their wares just as did Sheaffer US, and placed ads in Canadian publications. So I certainly haven't treated them as lacking any documentation whatsoever, just not catalogs so far.

For example, here's a Canadian Sheaffer ad showing typical wares.

--Daniel

[Teej47]

Hi June and Dave:

I respectfully disagree with Dave when he explains that Canadian Sheaffer pens are 4th tier. Tier, to me, has always and always will refer to the quality of the pen, 4th tier, by normal definition, is classified as a piece of junk. 1st tier is classified as the best quality. Canadian Sheaffer did not produce 4th tier junk. Arnold was a 4th tier maker of pens. Sheaffer Canada pens ( and pencils) were never 4th tier. 'Tier' has never been defined by splitting infinities and complicating it's definition. My opinion is based on 20 years in the hobby.

Joe Nemecek

Ah, but there's context involved in the symantics. The tiers being discussed are price points/trim levels of a given maker, who in this case was a First Tier company. Not the same thing as the similar rack and stack of pen making companies (although one could argue that the Sheaffer Jr line was probably stiff competition for products from lower tier companies... thus lending validity to the terminology).

I think it's pretty well implied that products from the "Big Four" (and a cluster of smaller more obscure makers) are first quality pens, but they were clearly working to appeal to consumers across the entire marketplace. Perhaps using the same terminology muddies things a bit... but "tier" is the perfect word to describe analytical stratification. Maybe we need to try to remember to clarify which sort of tier we're referring to in a given discussion.

Just my early morning two cents (which is worth way less than ever these days...).

Tim

[david i]

Hi June and Dave:

I respectfully disagree with Dave when he explains that Canadian Sheaffer pens are 4th tier. Tier, to me, has always and always will refer to the quality of the pen, 4th tier, by normal definition, is classified as a piece of junk. 1st tier is classified as the best quality. Canadian Sheaffer did not produce 4th tier junk. Arnold was a 4th tier maker of pens. Sheaffer Canada pens ( and pencils) were never 4th tier. 'Tier' has never been defined by splitting infinities and complicating it's definition. My opinion is based on 20 years in the hobby.

Joe Nemecek

Hi Joe,

It is possible I made my point in muddled fashion, or that you misread my point

We are on the same page. I absolutely do not assert that "Canadian" Sheaffer pens are, per se, 4th tier Sheaffers. I saw June's post as follows:

June H, on 12 April 2011 - 05:26 PM, said:

Hello David:
I am confused by the tier thing. You say that this pen is fourth tier. This does not mean it is made with poorer quality matierals? Could you clarify this tier designation for me?

And I used this to discuss the various tiers of Sheaffer pens (using USA standards post 1935). I should have pointed out that my first post in this thread did not assert that her pen (or the two I showed with WASP-ish clips) necessarily are fourth tier, though they do seem to hover around 3rd/4th tier zone, as they are found only slender, seem to (always?) have chrome trim on all colors and so forth. There are Canadian "Junior" pens found, although I'm not sure I've seen Balance Junior per se from Canada. I have couple interesting CanadianWASP/VACUUM-ish shaped pens marked Sheaffer Junior that are not Balance shaped and are not quite the earlier Truncated Balance shape.

I believe June asked if I was treating this pen as 4th tier, because it has chrome trim with all plastic colors, and I had mentioned that this is a finding of the Junior Balance (4th tier) line in USA Pens.

In any case, whether her pen is a 3rd or 4th tier Balance from its era in Canada or is something off the Main Sequence altogether, I'll be explicit that Canada produced Balances in multiple tiers just as did the USA.

The point I rather enjoyed in the last few posts is that most pens of multiple tiers within a given series tend to have the same basic manufacturing values, that appearance and price point vary, but that the $3 versions are not much (if at all) different in quality from the $10 versions.

regards

david

[david i]

Though I haven't seen Canadian Sheaffer catalogs, of course Sheaffer of Canada advertised their wares just as did Sheaffer US, and placed ads in Canadian publications. So I certainly haven't treated them as lacking any documentation whatsoever, just not catalogs so far.

For example, here's a Canadian Sheaffer ad showing typical wares.

--Daniel

Geez, why can't I find anything like that...

-d

[Kirchh]

Geez, why can't I find anything like that...

Stuff like this is fairly easy to locate, but in this case unless I miss my guess, you bought this copy of this ad, did you not? QED.

--Daniel

[david i]

Stuff like this is fairly easy to locate, but in this case unless I miss my guess, you bought this copy of this ad, did you not? QED.

--Daniel

Unless I miss my guess, you are not guessing...

We are, after all, old guard on ebay. Nice pick-up btw on the wide band red military pen

-d

[david i]

A follow up for June regarding the various Balance tiers.

I gave a breakdown for four tiers of Balance post 1935 (or so) once the Balance Junior had appeared and around the time the striated plastic colors began to appear


1) 1st Tier: Lifetime warranty, White Dot in cap, Lifetime-marked nib, smooth radius clip
2) 2nd Tier. Smaller warranty (i lack details offhand), non-White-Dot cap, Featherouch-marked nib, smooth radius clip
3) 3rd Tier. Smaller warranty still (any?): non-White -dot cap, "#3 nib", "Sheaffer's" Flat-ball (earlier style) clip
4) 4th Tier. ? Warranty. Non-white dot cap. "Sheaffer Junior" nib. "Sheaffer's Jr" flat ball clip, chrome trim in all colors


In the early days of Balance 1929+ there were three tiers of pens, found initially in colors including black, jade, marine green marbled, black and pearl.


1) 1st Tier: Lifetime warranty, White Dot in cap, Lifetime-marked nib
2) 2nd Tier. Smaller warranty (i lack details offhand), non-White-Dot cap, "5-30" nib
3) 3rd Tier. Smaller warranty still (any?): non-White -dot cap,"3-25" nib


I don't specify clip as the clip for all three tiers apparently evolved in parallel, first with the hump clip (full ball) then with the flat-ball clip, eventually evolving at some point in 1935 as noted in the first list.


I'm not sure offhand when the 5-30 nib gave way to the two tone feather touch nib or when the 3-25 nib gave way to the #3 nib. Early Balance had monotone Lifetime nib in the 1st tier pens. That became 2-tone rather early on, although I often find Black oversized pens in later style that still have monotone nibs. I have vague recollection that Daniel once mentioned the 1-tone vs 2-tone nib might have been optional in late OS black pens.


I'm not sure when the "truncated" Junior (pre- Balance Junior) appeared though it has been found in the marbled blue color which in balance has been claimed for 1932-3. We have no formal catalogues iirc between 1929 and 1935 (Great Depression anyone?), but a price sheet from around 1933 mentions the blue Balance. Truncated Balance is shown in 1935 catalogue (not in blue, though) and by 1936 Balance Junior has appeared (again, iirc) marking the appearance of the 4th tier Balance


Keep in mind that clearly one need not embrace the "tiers" thing. It is more than fine for those who know, discussing with those who know, to simply cite a "Feathertouch nib" Balance or a "5-30 non white dot" etc. But the tiers do make sense, and Sheaffer did not offer model names for its pens (as with Parker Vacumatic Major, Maxima, Slender etc) until very late in the game, so we are left with either tiers or detailed descriptions of pens. Even if one uses simple descriptions, "I have a Jade Balance full girth no white dot 5-30 nib" the tier schema allows one a sense of where this model and all others fell into the hierarchy.


regards


Daivd

[Kirchh]

Unless I miss my guess, you are not guessing...

We are, after all, old guard on ebay. Nice pick-up btw on the wide band red military pen

-d

Actually, just guessing -- you hinted at forthcoming documentation, and the auction had just closed, so it was logical that you knew you had something, but couldn't post it yet. 2+2=4.

Carmine military pen was a good pickup. Was hoping for a Service Autograph...got any?

--Daniel

[matt]

Here's another one, grey stripe, supposedly w/ GF trim

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=250802481481

[david i]

Actually, just guessing -- you hinted at forthcoming documentation, and the auction had just closed, so it was logical that you knew you had something, but couldn't post it yet. 2+2=4.

Ah, I sit corrected then. Since I never have to guess about your finds, it seemed reasonable that you were not having to guess about mine.

Carmine military pen was a good pickup. Was hoping for a Service Autograph...got any?

--Danaiel

Nope. But, yours looks to be smooth band, not "just" a Jeweler's lined band (itself a rare finding on military pens), so still pretty special, indeed the first I've seen. Worthy of starting a thread, if you get around to shooting it. Maybe I'll start it with my green lined-band pen.

-d