39 replies to this topic

[David Nishimura]

At the Chicago show, I was able to look at some copies of what appear to be early iterations of a catalog of the Parker archives. From internal evidence, the bulk of the compilation work was done in the 1940s.

I'm attaching a couple of images, and what will jump out right away is the reference to special models for credit jewelers. Now, we've had senior collectors referring for years to the less-common cap bands with the fine parallel lines pattern (AKA "stacked coin" pattern) as "jeweler's bands", but now we can all point to a contemporary reference that corroborates the correctness of this identification.

 Parker_cr_jeweler.jpg   29.65KB   82 downloads

 Parker_cr_jeweler2.jpg   47.26KB   69 downloads

Incidentally, the term "credit jeweler" is still in use, and refers to jewelers that will sell to their customers on credit -- presumably jewelers who are better-established and well-capitalized.

[Kirchh]

I don't really understand the documents or the connection with the non-standard bands on Vacumatics (or the parallel-lines-banded Lustraloy "51" cap). Some questions:

- What does "DL" stand for (in e.g. "Brown Maxima DL Pen")?
- What indications are there that any of the items labeled as part of the credit jewelers line sport "stacked coin" or other non-standard cap bands?
- What is special about what seem to be Parker "51" pencils designated as associated with the credit jewelers line?
- Is it possible that the credit jewelers line is merely a subset of the full line, excluding the more-expensive items to minimize the jewelers' risk, and it has nothing to do with non-standard cap bands?

I note that these docs are really rough -- the same color is referred to by multiple names, for example.

--Daniel

[David Nishimura]

The compilation is indeed rough, and will require interpretation. What it does provide, however, is the long-sought corroboration of the word-of-mouth lore regarding the identification of the "jeweler's" bands.

Admittedly, if this document were all the evidence we had, we would not have much to crow about. In combination with the orally-transmitted info, however, this is good stuff.

[Kirchh]

The compilation is indeed rough, and will require interpretation. What it does provide, however, is the long-sought corroboration of the word-of-mouth lore regarding the identification of the "jeweler's" bands.

Admittedly, if this document were all the evidence we had, we would not have much to crow about. In combination with the orally-transmitted info, however, this is good stuff.

But what in these documents links the stacked-coin bands (or any otherwise non-cataloged bands) with this credit jewelers line? And are you referring to Vacumatic pens' cap bands, or the Lustraloy "51" cap with the wide lined band?

--Daniel

[matt]

Does this snippet of data imply that the coin silver 51 caps were in the jeweler's line only? It's curious that Parker had both sterling and coin silver caps.

[david i]

I don't really understand the documents or the connection with the non-standard bands on Vacumatics (or the parallel-lines-banded Lustraloy "51" cap). Some questions:

- What does "DL" stand for (in e.g. "Brown Maxima DL Pen")?
- What indications are there that any of the items labeled as part of the credit jewelers line sport "stacked coin" or other non-standard cap bands?
- What is special about what seem to be Parker "51" pencils designated as associated with the credit jewelers line?
- Is it possible that the credit jewelers line is merely a subset of the full line, excluding the more-expensive items to minimize the jewelers' risk, and it has nothing to do with non-standard cap bands?

I note that these docs are really rough -- the same color is referred to by multiple names, for example.

--Daniel

More than ten years ago, when I'd asked- perhaps on Zoss- if anyone had evidence for the source of the "Jeweler's Band" name for Vacs with the wide lined cap (vs the thinner later lined bands that today many called "stacked coin" band, not to pick nits with David Nishimura's label, as there are not hard rules on such names), Fultz tossed a one liner along lines of "These were meant for Jewelry shops" or even "These were sold in credit jewelry shops".

Of course no reference was offered, limiting the discussion. I have vague recollection that Saul Kitchener- in chat at a pen show- mentioned he'd been told by a Parker employee or rep that these variants were meant for such shops.

The pages shown in this thread by David Nishimura are part of a 1944 Parker compilation of models, an extensive list with each pen simply marked by a progressively higher number (Pen 2, Pen 1150, etc) and often with vague descriptors ("translucent white pen with black veins") rather than formal colors or models. We've been speculating as to the reason behind the production of the compilation.

It is apparent that this is the source of Fultz's original claim. The cover sheet likely is modern, as it cites Fultz's library in similar font, but the first interior page has 1944 Parker memo.

The catalogue showed up at Chicago, one of many things apparently recently found in Fultz's garage. I have some other "garage" items on hand.

Indeed, the verbiage in the text occasionally is obscure and even vaguely contradictory. So it goes.

Still, wide bands are mentioned for Vac, usually as "DL Pen with Wide Band (Credit Jeweler Line)". Also there is mention of pens such as these save for "Engraved" substituted for "Wide". So far to my perusal, that descriptor is used only for Deb size pens. I note that in practice, from same era, some quite scarce, usually Deb sized pens are found with smooth wide band. Interesting.

Too, the Maxima as such ('Wide", Credit Line) is priced at $12.75, a higher price than is seen for any catalogued Maxima with routine cap-band.

Certainly, as we read the cave paintings, there will be room for disparate interpretations.


Could "DL" mean "Deluxe Line"? If so, why also mention Credit Jeweler Line? Idunno.


I do note again that more scarce today than the Jeweler's Band pen is the (overwhelmingly Deb size) smooth band double jewel pens, that could take engraving very nicely. At first peek in this paper, I see the Engraved Band notation only for Deb size pens.

I will peek more over next couple weeks, but at the very least, an association of "Wide Band", "Credit Jeweler's Line", price bump for some models with said band and David Nishimura's assertion that Credit Jewelers were better established houses (that perhaps wanted something from Parker to set themselves apart from the riff raff?), makes a decent case for what we call "Jeweler's Band" pens being the ones described.

I am open to other views and plan to digest the text further in coming days.


BTW- I just received some sheaffer literature in the mail that has an eye-popping color image from 1932. No one has published this before to best of my knowledge, though who knows what lurks in cagey collectors' collections. Might release it as a one-pager in PENnant soon. It perhaps sheds great light on some of our assumptions for that year.

regards


David

[Kirchh]

It seems David I makes reference to other pages not shown here; my comments are in the context of the two pages posted by David N., in which I see no specific references to band styles. I am interested in any discussion about the points I made.

--Daniel
P.S. I like eye-popping color Sheaffer images from the early '30s. It's not a depiction of red-veined Grey Pearl, though, is it? Ads showing same are well known among the hard-core Sheaffer folks.

[david i]

It seems David I makes reference to other pages not shown here; my comments are in the context of the two pages posted by David N., in which I see no specific references to band styles. I am interested in any discussion about the points I made. (emph added)

--Daniel
P.S. I like eye-popping color Sheaffer images from the early '30s. It's not a depiction of red-veined Grey Pearl, though, is it? Ads showing same are well known among the hard-core Sheaffer folks.

The catalog has more than 90 pages. The references I provide are from the same compilation that is referenced by David Nishimura. Your point in your latest post does surprise. Are you interested in the information about the pens offered by the catalogue, or are you more interested to point out that David referenced parts of the catalogue for which he did not provide images? Indeed, I was under the impression that my first post in this thread specifically addressed some of the points you had made.

You wrote,

- What indications are there that any of the items labeled as part of the credit jewelers line sport "stacked coin" or other non-standard cap bands?

I provided a quotation in my prior post citing wide band and a higher-than-usual price point for the Maxima with that band. Is this proof? Perhaps not. One can imagine... i suppose... a "wide band" that is a "normal wide band", but this would not account for the $12.75 price point. One wonders... if a Sheaffer catalogue referenced a wide band Oversize for jewelry shops and mentioned $13.75 price, would that suggest a special line Sheaffer?

- Is it possible that the credit jewelers line is merely a subset of the full line, excluding the more-expensive items to minimize the jewelers' risk, and it has nothing to do with non-standard cap bands?

Many things are possible, and I have yet to fully absorb the catalogue, and I again note the limited descriptions it provides in many cases. But, while the CJ line would have to be a subset of the full line (how can any part not be a subset of the whole?), it does mention specific band patterns and in some cases cites unique-to-line price points.

P.S. I like eye-popping color Sheaffer images from the early '30s. It's not a depiction of red-veined Grey Pearl, though, is it? Ads showing same are well known among the hard-core Sheaffer folks.

Nah, this one leans more to pure yellow and to... impure blue. No joke

-d

[Kirchh]

Your point in your latest post does surprise. Are you interested in the information about the pens offered by the catalogue, or are you more interested to point out that David referenced parts of the catalogue for which he did not provide images?

I am interested in the information David N. refers to, and I am interested in figuring out how or if the images he posted support his assertions. I am not at all familar with some of the terms and abbreviations used in the posted pages, so I asked for clarification. His post strongly implied that the images he posted specifically supported the association of jewelers models with certain band styles. You seem to be implying that the pages he posted do not demonstrate that correlation (while other pages from the same document or compilation do), but I am hoping that David N. will speak for himself to clarify this question.

--Daniel

[Kirchh]

Incidentally, the term "credit jeweler" is still in use, and refers to jewelers that will sell to their customers on credit -- presumably jewelers who are better-established and well-capitalized.

I gather that at the time, credit jewelers were near the bottom of the jewelry businesses class structure, being the Rent-a-Centers of their field, enticing less-well-off customers with payment plans that allowed them to purchase items otherwise well beyond their means. I see references contrasting them with old-line jewelers and high-end establishments, as well as pejorative depictions and consumer actions and warnings about their practices.

This raises the interesting question about what characteristic(s) of penmakers' "credit jewelers'" offerings would make them especially suited to channeling through these establishments. Superficial adornments that allow high markups, which then could be offered in such schemes as "12 months same as cash", thus effectively hiding credit charges? Just speculating.

--Daniel

[david i]

I am interested in the information David N. refers to, and I am interested in figuring out how or if the images he posted support his assertions. I am not at all familar with some of the terms and abbreviations used in the posted pages, so I asked for clarification. His post strongly implied that the images he posted specifically supported the association of jewelers models with certain band styles. You seem to be implying that the pages he posted do not demonstrate that correlation (while other pages from the same document or compilation do), but I am hoping that David N. will speak for himself to clarify this question.

--Daniel

Hmmm, then to degree that my quotes (which David N. also has in hand) more strongly support David N's assertions than did the snippets of images he posted, I see by your response that you are less interested in the actual revelation of new Parker information and its import, than you are in exploring whether David posted only limited images from his larger cache. I greatly apologize for missing your form-not-content concern. I had thought the pens, and shedding light for collectors on obscure information, was more important than objecting to a limited release of info in a single post from a larger cache.

-d

[david i]

I gather that at the time, credit jewelers were near the bottom of the jewelry businesses class structure, being the Rent-a-Centers of their field, enticing less-well-off customers with payment plans that allowed them to purchase items otherwise well beyond their means. I see references contrasting them with old-line jewelers and high-end establishments, as well as pejorative depictions and consumer actions and warnings about their practices.

This raises the interesting question about what characteristic(s) of penmakers' "credit jewelers'" offerings would make them especially suited to channeling through these establishments. Superficial adornments that allow high markups, which then could be offered in such schemes as "12 months same as cash", thus effectively hiding credit charges? Just speculating.

--Daniel

Possible. I have done no research as to whether "credit" jewelers in fact generally were of greater or lesser prestige/status than non-credit jewelers

David Nishimura wrote,

Incidentally, the term "credit jeweler" is still in use, and refers to jewelers that will sell to their customers on credit -- presumably jewelers who are better-established and well-capitalized.

The suggestion is that credit jeweler's were stronger players than non-credit jewelers. I don't have access to his basis for this proposal and do not know in any case if the term might have evolved over the decades. To degree that I drop into sheer speculation, perhaps credit jewelers had better relationships with Parker, allowing the jeweler to buy from Parker on credit (vs cash up front)? I don't know. Still, such up-market jewelers might have wanted a product that set them apart from the riff raff.

I am not sold on notion that if credit jewelers were wimpy downstream sellers (eg. Today's rent-to-own furniture shops), they would have access to fancier and more expensive pens than up-market retailers, even allowing for possibility of greater mark up on trivial bling on their line of pens. The money (as with pawn shops, i suppose) would seem to be in the credit portion. Rent-to-own electronics and furniture shops today seem not to sell up-market variants.

-d

[Kirchh]

Hmmm, then to degree that my quotes (which David N. also has in hand) more strongly support David N's assertions than did the snippets of images he posted, I see by your response that you are less interested in the actual revelation of new Parker information and its import, than you are in exploring whether David posted only limited images from his larger cache. I greatly apologize for missing your form-not-content concern. I had thought the pens, and shedding light for collectors on obscure information, was more important than objecting to a limited release of info in a single post from a larger cache.

-d

Again, you fail to understand. Your characterization that "you are less interested in the actual revelation of new Parker information and its import, than you are in exploring whether David posted only limited images from his larger cache" is erroneous. I stated, "I am interested in the information David N. refers to, and I am interested in figuring out how or if the images he posted support his assertions." Note that you have added a comparative where I used none, which is unfortunate.

I also did not in any way refer to an exploration of "whether David posted only limited images from his larger cache." I specifically asked about what support there was in the images he posted for his statements, which I felt implied the presence of that support. Again, there is terminology in the shown pages that I do not understand. I hope he responds so we can continue the topic constructively.

I greatly apologize for missing your form-not-content concern.

I accept your apology, though you're wildly wrong about my posts.

I had thought the pens, and shedding light for collectors on obscure information, was more important than objecting to a limited release of info in a single post from a larger cache.

A silly and obvious mischaracterization, and rather disappointing, too, with the irony that it digresses from the central discussion. The snarky attitude does nothing positive for the dialog.

Again, I hope David N. will elaborate for himself.

---Daniel

[Richard]

My question on the "jeweler's band" designation is this: is a differentiation made between the ones with indicia and the ones without? The distinction I've absorbed over time is that "stacked coin" referred to the sans-indicia version and that "jeweler's band" meant that an indicia was present. If there's no such distinction, I will need to edit a few things on my site to conflate the two names in a proper way.

[Kirchh]

Possible. I have done no research as to whether "credit" jewelers in fact generally were of greater or lesser prestige/status than non-credit jewelers

I have, and there is a fairly clear stratification.

The suggestion is that credit jeweler's were stronger players than non-credit jewelers. I don't have access to his basis for this proposal and do not know in any case if the term might have evolved over the decades. To degree that I drop into sheer speculation, perhaps credit jewelers had better relationships with Parker, allowing the jeweler to buy from Parker on credit (vs cash up front)? I don't know. Still, such up-market jewelers might have wanted a product that set them apart from the riff raff.

As stated, I believe the retail jewelry biz followed the inverse model, with credit jewelers on the bottom. I see references such as "[a shopping center] hoped to have both a quality jeweler and a credit jeweler", "the credit jeweler gets a chance because the old line jeweler frowns on installment credit", "A department store might prefer to use [an upper-income-readership newspaper for advertising] for its upstairs store and [a lower-income-readership newspaper] for its basement; a deluxe jeweler would use the first, and a credit jeweler the second", and, from 1934, "there would not seem to be much in common between the sales practices of medical quacks and the dignified eminence of a skilled surgeon, nor between an advertising credit jeweler and an establishment such as Tiffany's...."

I am not sold on notion that if credit jewelers were wimpy downstream sellers (eg. Today's rent-to-own furniture shops), they would have access to fancier and more expensive pens than up-market retailers, even allowing for possibility of greater mark up on trivial bling on their line of pens. The money (as with pawn shops, i suppose) would seem to be in the credit portion. Rent-to-own electronics and furniture shops today seem not to sell up-market variants.

But note, for example, which pencils are listed as being in the credit jewelers line -- the least expensive shown. Most tellingly, the coin silver capped items are $5, and part of the credit jeweler line, whereas the $15 pencils with 14K trim are designated as bearing "retail silver caps" (one period term for non-credit jewelers was retail jewelers).

Generally, the CJ-line items may have only been superficially up-market -- enough to justify a higher tag price than regular pens at stationers' and such and to make room for the (possibly hidden) credit charges when paid off over time. Truly top-line variants -- 14K trim/caps/everything, for example -- may indeed have been available at higher-tier retail jewelers.

--Daniel

[david i]

My question on the "jeweler's band" designation is this: is a differentiation made between the ones with indicia and the ones without? The distinction I've absorbed over time is that "stacked coin" referred to the sans-indicia version and that "jeweler's band" meant that an indicia was present. If there's no such distinction, I will need to edit a few things on my site to conflate the two names in a proper way.

I'll address Daniel's objections a bit later, as I'm off to pre-shift dinner.

Your question touches on the tricky interface between the pens themselves and collector convention. I'll toss out some observations and hypotheses and we'll see if we can reach clarity. But, I'll start with my asserted conclusion.

Basically, many of us who use the term "stacked coin band" reference the thinner of the two lined cap-band patterns, and that thinner pattern correlates to third generation Vacs, found mostly on 1942-ish pens, though on conventionally striped Vacs, the cap-band might have persisted to 1945 or even later. The wider band with broad top and bottom margins, we call "jeweler's cap-band", and it correlates to 2nd generation double jewel pens and within that era seems to have been used only 1939-41.

Note that there has been essentially no documentation ever made available (prior to this thread) to support either name.

The name "Jeweler's Band" goes much further back in pendom and had claims (again, as per this thread) to derive from Parker's own terminology. "Stacked Coin Band" is well more recent collector convention with no claims to deriving from Parker's own terminology.

The information being brought out today likely is the source for Fultz's old use of the term, "Jeweler's Band". We explore now whether he was correct in his and others' use of that term, at least as to how well the 1944 retrospective Parker catalogue support that usage.

It is entirely possible that the later thinner "stacked coin" variant is an evolutionary tweak for pens meant for the same market niche.

regards

david

[david i]

SNIP

But note, for example, which pencils are listed as being in the credit jewelers line -- the least expensive shown. Most tellingly, the coin silver capped items are $5, and part of the credit jeweler line, whereas the $15 pencils with 14K trim are designated as bearing "retail silver caps" (one period term for non-credit jewelers was retail jewelers).

Generally, the CJ-line items may have only been superficially up-market -- enough to justify a higher tag price than regular pens at stationers' and such and to make room for the (possibly hidden) credit charges when paid off over time. Truly top-line variants -- 14K trim/caps/everything, for example -- may indeed have been available at higher-tier retail jewelers.

--Daniel

Will explore more later and will address your earlier post later, as I must grab some food before the 12-hour shift. Your observations provide food for thought about credit jewelers back in the day. I cannot comment-- at least yet-- about the Parker 51 pens in the catalogue, as I have not yet perused that data. For some reason, I focused on Vacs.

-d

[Richard]

Basically, many of us who use the term "stacked coin band" reference the thinner of the two lined cap-band patterns, and that thinner pattern correlates to third generation Vacs, found mostly on 1942-ish pens, though on conventionally striped Vacs, the cap-band might have persisted to 1945 or even later. The wider band with broad top and bottom margins, we call "jeweler's cap-band", and it correlates to 2nd generation double jewel pens and within that era seems to have been used only 1939-41.

You're targeting Vacs specifically, and that's not inherently evil, but Parker was not the only company to have used a "stacked coin" design on cap bands. If there is a difference in meaning (to collectors) depending on who made the pen, then I'd like to codify that subtlety as best I can.

[david i]

You're targeting Vacs specifically, and that's not inherently evil, but Parker was not the only company to have used a "stacked coin" design on cap bands. If there is a difference in meaning (to collectors) depending on who made the pen, then I'd like to codify that subtlety as best I can.

Hi Richard,

Ahhh, your original question misled me

Richard, on 16 May 2011 - 05:36 PM, said:

My question on the "jeweler's band" designation is this: is a differentiation made between the ones with indicia and the ones without? The distinction I've absorbed over time is that "stacked coin" referred to the sans-indicia version and that "jeweler's band" meant that an indicia was present. If there's no such distinction, I will need to edit a few things on my site to conflate the two names in a proper way.

I'd thought you were asking about names for the two types of horizontally lined (really concentrically circled) cap-bands found on Vacumatic and the similar single wider-of-the-two band types found also on Parker 51. To degree that collector convention names those bands, I provided the answer and context in my prior post.

As to the broader notion you engage, the presence of and nomenclature for cap-bands of vaguely similar look on pens from other makers... rules appear to be lacking.

Consider this example, which I believe would qualify as a cap-band in this general style (with more coarse look) in this case from Moore.

Certainly no one ever has publicly presented any catalogue data for this series. We have no idea what Moore called the cap-band, if it called it anything at all. We certainly lack the historical context (possible documentation for which has first been presented to pendom's public in this thread by David Nishimura) to claim any sort of special jewelry shop sales setting for this pen so as to map a Jeweler's Cap-Band label. We are left with observation and collector convention (why, again is the oversized Wahl gold seal flat-top called "the Deco Band"? ) to guide us. And, any loud voice that carries some sense with it (one hopes) can carry the day for nomenclature in such case.


The Jeweler's Band has been called that when it is found on Vacs because some long time collectors believed there was a special related context for that band. Today we explore documentation that supports this. But, the "stacked coin" term is strictly observational. I see no reason to call a random company's wide-lined band, even if it has cartouche, a "Jeweler's Band", but have no problem calling any ringed band a "stacked coin band". Again, one has historical connection, the other is observational.


Thoughts?


david






regards


David

[Teej47]

BTW- I just received some sheaffer literature in the mail that has an eye-popping color image from 1932.

I immediately think "Blue!" of course (apparently in my mind Sheaffer + 1932 = blue). But yellow? Definitely curious.

Tim