26 replies to this topic

[David Nishimura]

A topic much discussed at the Chicago show was all the pens (and nibs) getting melted down. In some cases, it's a matter of collector prices getting outrun by fast-rising gold prices, but in others, it's a matter of a little knowledge -- as when a dealer who "knows" what collectors will pay for a given pen decided to scrap it for more, without realizing that his notion of what a collector (or dealer) would pay might be obsolete knowledge.

I suspect this is what lay behind the destruction of this Command Performance Skyline set currently offered on eBay, where the seller states, "The collector value of the pen has been about $400 in the past few years".

Quite aside from not keeping up with the current market, there is another logical fallacy at work: that collectors will not allow metal value to affect how much they are willing to pay for a pen. Yet in my experience, collectors will take this into account. In fact, if one is concerned about paying too much for a pen, it becomes quite reassuring to know that the price paid is only slightly above the melt value.

[david i]

A topic much discussed at the Chicago show was all the pens (and nibs) getting melted down. In some cases, it's a matter of collector prices getting outrun by fast-rising gold prices, but in others, it's a matter of a little knowledge -- as when a dealer who "knows" what collectors will pay for a given pen decided to scrap it for more, without realizing that his notion of what a collector (or dealer) would pay might be obsolete knowledge.

I suspect this is what lay behind the destruction of this Command Performance Skyline set currently offered on eBay, where the seller states, "The collector value of the pen has been about $400 in the past few years".

Quite aside from not keeping up with the current market, there is another logical fallacy at work: that collectors will not allow metal value to affect how much they are willing to pay for a pen. Yet in my experience, collectors will take this into account. In fact, if one is concerned about paying too much for a pen, it becomes quite reassuring to know that the price paid is only slightly above the melt value.

A collecting atrocity to say the least. i certainly would not bid in this context, though no doubt some would.

in addition to the points you raise, let us toss in the scrap value issue. Collectors/sellers say "Ounce of gold 24carat is $1500. 14carat thus $850"

Even if an ounce of 14 carat gold present, what percentage of value is obtained when one takes the scrap to the smelter?

-d

[Hugh]

A collecting atrocity to say the least.

-d

That's putting it mildly David , what I think isn't printable.....

Regards
Hugh

[vintage penman]

By the time the gold refiners have taken their cut probably 60 - 75% of the spot price for 14ct gold, therefore $500 to $650 at best.

Mindless bloody vandal - needs hanging by his nuts from a barbed wire fence.

[David Nishimura]

Tonnes of antique silver scrapped after bullion price hike

These rises brought remarkable scenes as bullion dealers across the country were inundated with material for scrapping. Hatton Garden firm 375 Live Ltd traded close to a metric tonne of silver on Tuesday, April 26, when prices touched £30 an ounce.

With their value as a raw material far outstripping their value as antiques, proprietor Steve Conway saw some "stunning" objects emerging from the dealing community to be scrapped.

Good quality Victorian tea sets, Georgian salvers, trophies, cruet sets and flatware were melted onsite as more than £1.5m changed hands.

When ATG visited the following day (when the price was just over £23 an ounce), the plastic dustbins filling with silver included items of the calibre of a large George II armorial-engraved salver weighing 70oz (scrap value £1610) and a late 19th century Tiffany engraved tea and coffee service weighing in at 260oz (£5980) with its ornate tea kettle and stand. If they had not been 'saved' by a buyer wishing to own them as functional works of art by the close of trading, they were heading to the crucible.

Actually, if you know who to deal with, the discount from spot is very small indeed. Bullion dealers typically work on extremely thin margins. Of course, there are jewelers and gold buying hucksters who pay much less, but most experienced antiques dealers know where to go.

[wekiva98]

Humanity would have a much greater understanding of where we came from if the gold bugs had not been pillaging art and history for scrap metal over the centuries. On the one hand, they're just recyclers; on the other hand, they're a sort of plague -- people who understand the price of things but the value of nothing.

[PatMorgan]

How many here have written the pen rapist? I have and expressed my opinion. How many here have?

How many here write to the rapists when they see the ads in their newspapers or on Craigslist to the pen rapists to please not violate them and leave them in tact and contact you about selling the pen?

I have and get laughed at. How many here in the community though have done the same.

It will not stop until we work to make it stop.

[david i]

How many here have written the pen rapist? I have and expressed my opinion. How many here have?

How many here write to the rapists when they see the ads in their newspapers or on Craigslist to the pen rapists to please not violate them and leave them in tact and contact you about selling the pen?

I have and get laughed at. How many here in the community though have done the same.

It will not stop until we work to make it stop.

Concur in principle. But seems largely no hope. Has happened forever. Sad really

-d

[FredM]

I'm trying to rescue as many old Parkers and Waterman as possible.

[Rockyrod]

I saw this same thing back in the early 80's with coins in both gold and silver. It sure raised the price on Franklin half dollars and Roosevelt Dimes.

[ashbridg]

A collecting atrocity to say the least. i certainly would not bid in this context, though no doubt some would.

in addition to the points you raise, let us toss in the scrap value issue. Collectors/sellers say "Ounce of gold 24carat is $1500. 14carat thus $850"

Even if an ounce of 14 carat gold present, what percentage of value is obtained when one takes the scrap to the smelter?

-d

Refiners offer the best deal. They charge only a few percent, but they don’t advertize, and there is a minimum weight requirement of an ounce or two (a few high school rings and a handful of nibs should do it). Then of course there are the fly-by-night buyers who set up shop in vacant storefronts. They’re easy to find. They hang out paper banners saying “We Buy Gold.” These hustlers are popping up at an alarming rate. Every strip mall in my area has one. They charge 30% commission or more if they can get it.

It seems to me that Triumph nibs are suffering the worst because of their gold content. I’ve seen 20 auctions in recent weeks for pens with Triumph nibs removed. Is there something we can do? Many sellers are shameless and very matter of fact about scrapping nibs. But if collectors are willing to pay the scrap value I believe we can stop this practice, or at least slow it down. I don’t know if they will pay scrap value though. Isn’t it bad for the hobby when scrap dealers will pay more for vintage pens than collectors will?
Ashby

[David Nishimura]

Collectors have to pay enough over scrap value to make it worthwhile for large-scale gold traders to take any interest. Just matching what a refiner will pay isn't enough.

Which is why Ashby is on target: pen collectors can't bury their heads in the sand -- they have to educate themselves about the gold content and gold value of the items they collect. Collectors, and especially veteran collectors, sometimes tend to fall into a mental rut after a while regarding pricing, getting it into their heads that certain items have a certain "correct" price -- even as the market continually moves, as it inevitably does.

When gold was sitting in the $400-500 range, the pen show price range for a Skyline Command Performance set did in fact float in the $500-600 area. This didn't change much for quite a few years. But once gold started to rise, one could see there would be problems if collectors (and pen dealers) didn't take this into account. Pen authorities' public insistence that the "correct" price for these sets was significantly lower than their metal value effectively condemned them to the crucible.

I don't believe that collectors are so inflexible about what they will pay for such items. If they are convinced that due to metal price changes there is a new collector pricing structure, they will adapt. In fact, it should make items trading at only a slight premium to bullion more appealing: with an all-plastic pen, the collector premium is nearly the entire value; with the gold pen, it may be less than 5% -- not a lot of downside!

I have a beautiful Command Performance set that I'll be listing in my online catalog before too long. It's like new, boxed with papers, original cellophane sleeves, etc. I'll probably price it around $1200, with no apologies. Some may say I'm asking too much. But how can such a set be worth any less than its material value, plus a rather modest premium for scarcity and workmanship?

[Michael Quitt]

Collectors have to pay enough over scrap value to make it worthwhile for large-scale gold traders to take any interest. Just matching what a refiner will pay isn't enough.

Which is why Ashby is on target: pen collectors can't bury their heads in the sand -- they have to educate themselves about the gold content and gold value of the items they collect. Collectors, and especially veteran collectors, sometimes tend to fall into a mental rut after a while regarding pricing, getting it into their heads that certain items have a certain "correct" price -- even as the market continually moves, as it inevitably does.

When gold was sitting in the $400-500 range, the pen show price range for a Skyline Command Performance set did in fact float in the $500-600 area. This didn't change much for quite a few years. But once gold started to rise, one could see there would be problems if collectors (and pen dealers) didn't take this into account. Pen authorities' public insistence that the "correct" price for these sets was significantly lower than their metal value effectively condemned them to the crucible.

I don't believe that collectors are so inflexible about what they will pay for such items. If they are convinced that due to metal price changes there is a new collector pricing structure, they will adapt. In fact, it should make items trading at only a slight premium to bullion more appealing: with an all-plastic pen, the collector premium is nearly the entire value; with the gold pen, it may be less than 5% -- not a lot of downside!

I have a beautiful Command Performance set that I'll be listing in my online catalog before too long. It's like new, boxed with papers, original cellophane sleeves, etc. I'll probably price it around $1200, with no apologies. Some may say I'm asking too much. But how can such a set be worth any less than its material value, plus a rather modest premium for scarcity and workmanship?

HI David,

After all of the non-gold material is stripped out of one of those sets, how much actual gold in oz or pennyweight is in the pen and the pencil?

Thanks,
Michael
www.charmcitypens.com

[David Nishimura]

I think the original link answers that question.

[Michael Quitt]

Sorry about that...I came in to this thread in the middle and didn't go back that far.
MQ

[Pedro]

This is exactly what's been going on in the pocket watch world. Fine pocket watches' parts and cases lost forever as they were ripped apart to sell their gold parts as scrap. Their value and historical originality lost forever. Makes me angry too.

[PatMorgan]

Concur in principle. But seems largely no hope. Has happened forever. Sad really

-d

the person whose ebay ad initiated this thread is a well known pen collector.
it's sad when our own rape a pen for its content.

[david i]

the person whose ebay ad initiated this thread is a well known pen collector.
it's sad when our own rape a pen for its content.

Ahhh jiust looked at name/locale. More sad. But, hs economic argument proved sound. Have some expansion to offer on David Nishmiura's views above. Biut wll wait iuntil jkeyboard fxed in couple days. Too hard to type now.'

[Michael Quitt]

As of a couple of hours ago, that was $912.00 in gold value...so, David N...your set at $1200. is not a bad price considering condition, box, paperwork, etc.

[ashbridg]

the person whose ebay ad initiated this thread is a well known pen collector.
it's sad when our own rape a pen for its content.

It’s obvious from the listing description that he’s familiar with pens, and also that he’s angry. These pens are “usually a bit dented, but this one was a beauty,” he says in praise of the pen’s condition before he destroyed it. With this remark he’s taking a shot at pen collectors. Maybe they wouldn’t buy his pen.

Incredibly, according to eBay, he sold another Skyline Command Performance set on May 1, and threw in some loose nibs to sweeten the deal. (Either he sold two sets or the pen came back and he sold it again). His picture is on his feedback profile page. Maybe someone from the Teaneck area knows him.

Ashby