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Sheaffer Orange Flat-Top. World's Largest Collection.


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#1 david i

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 12:23 PM

Sheaffer made flat-top pens (not that they called 'em that. That just was the look of the era) from the beginning around 1908-1912 through their last catalogue appearance in 1929 and probably on for another decade as the uncatalogued weak sibling to the better publicized Balance during the 1930's. Our awareness of late production flat-tops is a fairly recent thing too.

Unlike Parker, Sheaffer did not play much with orange celluloid. Still at least three pens and four pencils are catalogued in orange plastic, what Sheaffer eventually called Coral (not to be confused with tthe two-tone Coral used by Wahl, Carter and others).

A mini collection of Coral Sheaffer plastic flat top pens thus would seem to be a modest undertaking. Indeed I really never set out to find these with a completist bent. Over the years I've even sold pens that were not duplicates. Still, inexorably I seemed to have ever more of these resting in the pen cabinet. Then I started finding the off-catalogue variants. That sort of discovery is my collecting sweet spot. Indeed, I might be responsible for introducing to the hobby-at-large the notion of the slender orange Sheaffer plastic flat-top. Ahhh, fame.

I just tossed the collection in a tray for a quick photo shoot.

The six items at left all are catalogued and represent six of the seven catalogued sizes and trim configurations. One could double the pen count, recognizing that early pens had "46 Special" nibs and were considered pens of that line, while later pens had "3-25" nibs and indeed had that same imprint at top of cap. All the pens from the catalogued group are standard girth. An oversized pencil (no pen catalogued to match) starts the run at the very left. As the pens with the two different imprints look essentially the same, I have not felt the need to have duplicates of each pen just to have the two imprint sets.

The ten items at right all are undocumented to best of my knowledge. There are some weird pens amongst those ten. Some have "late" features which alone might lump them simply into the now recognized post-1929 flat-top category. Others have off-catalogue trim. The last five are the nifty slender pens, those again perhaps being my "discovery" for the hobby.

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Later, when I'm actually awake, I can outline some more details of the odd pens at the right.


Other flat-top aficionados are invited to comments. Actually anyone is invited to comment ;)

regards

david
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#2 Roger W.

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 04:04 PM

Second largest collection of coral Sheaffer. Don't worry that makes you the king of silly claims. If I only had a couple of pencils...

Roger W.

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Two on left are non catalog. Technically, the thin two on the right are non catalog but they are just a variation on R3-25SC's.

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Close up of the two non catalog. The style is from the RHR 1923 46's but these are later radite. The wide band is a very late 46 as the barrel is not marked with a plastic supplier source code. Sheaffer tracked early radite by the company that supplied the plastic. Radite may very well only mean plastic and not a particular formulation. Jade 46's, which were introduced late in 1926, were never marked with a source code giving us an approximate end date for the practice. Since the lifetimes were in continual production the small 46's give us the date range on when lifetimes were being marked so that very early lifetimes can be identified by a source code as having been made in the first two years of production. Radite was first used in late 1924 with the source coding thru late 1926. Almost all non jade 46's are source marked which means that jade 46's were primarily the ones being made into 1927 prior to switching to the limited guarantee pens - the 3-25's and 5-30's of circa 1928.

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Shown here are 46's from D = DuPont and F = Fiberloid Company

#3 Hugh

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:51 AM

Nice spread guys, thanks

Regards
Hugh
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#4 david i

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:00 AM

Second largest collection of coral Sheaffer. Don't worry that makes you the king of silly claims. If I only had a couple of pencils...

SNIP

Roger W.



Hey, a wee dram o' bombast garners attention for the pens ;)

Besides, I'll be happy to cede the title if anyone coughs up more pens.

You came close on pen count, though some of them seem to be duplicates save for 46-Special vs 3-25 Imprints. At least all the pens I show have size/trim differences ;)

-d




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#5 david i

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:03 AM

Two on left are non catalog. Technically, the thin two on the right are non catalog but they are just a variation on R3-25SC's.

\


Hey, "just" should never be used with vaunted off-catalogue items.

That said, care to share how the slenders relate to R3-25SCs.?

regards

d
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#6 Roger W.

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 03:55 AM

Hey, "just" should never be used with vaunted off-catalogue items.

That said, care to share how the slenders relate to R3-25SCs.?

regards

d


David;

R3-25SC - Red (coral) 3-25 (might have 3 nib only) Short Clip. Not sure where the problem lies. It is clear to me that when the jade 3-25's came out in 1930 Sheaffer downed the diameter of the 3-25 line to the same diameter as the black 3-25's were thinner to start with as they replaced 22 Student Specials. The coral 3-25's however were originally a replacement of the 46 line which was a larger diameter to start with. This is where you have to follow the conversions as the somewhat thicker black 46 becomes the 5-30 since there is already a thin 3-25 replacing the 22 Student Special. However, when the jade 3-25 came out in 1930 it was in the thin diameter in keeping with the 1926 late release of the 46 Special in jade. The rest of the 46 line may have mostly been discontinued in 1926/7 so that we don't find thinner coral 46's. But in 1930 when jade 3-25's come out the corals were still continued but on the smaller diameter. It makes sense to me - YMMDPosted Image

There is no other possible designation for R3-25SC but I would amend such with var.2 for the thin diameter models (R3-25SCvar.2). Thinking along the lines of Krause World Coins I am not currently further bifurcating in reference to straight clip v hump clip though consideration of this could enter in more variations of R3-25SC as there are several variations on this designation (even 3-25 nib v 3 nib could be another valid variation). None of these variations negate the fact that the pen is a R3-25SC.


Roger W.

#7 david i

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 04:15 AM

David;

R3-25SC - Red (coral) 3-25 (might have 3 nib only) Short Clip. Not sure where the problem lies. It is clear to me that when the jade 3-25's came out in 1930 Sheaffer downed the diameter of the 3-25 line to the same diameter as the black 3-25's were thinner to start with as they replaced 22 Student Specials. The coral 3-25's however were originally a replacement of the 46 line which was a larger diameter to start with. This is where you have to follow the conversions as the somewhat thicker black 46 becomes the 5-30 since there is already a thin 3-25 replacing the 22 Student Special.

However, when the jade 3-25 came out in 1930 it was in the thin diameter in keeping with the 1926 late release of the 46 Special in jade. The rest of the 46 line may have mostly been discontinued in 1926/7 so that we don't find thinner coral 46's. But in 1930 when jade 3-25's come out the corals were still continued but on the smaller diameter. It makes sense to me - YMMDPosted Image

Emphasis added by Isaacson)



1930 dates to after the last catalogue appearance of flat-tops which was in the 1929 catalogue, no?

Yet the uncatalogued slender orange (coral) pens we discuss are found with both the early high set clip and late low humped clip (as per my shot above).

So...

1) Do you have post 1929 info to date intro of slender flat top 3-25 (except black) to post 1929?

2) Do you suggest then that the switch on the uncatalogued (at the time) flat-tops from post-1920 were still made with high-set clip switching to humped clip later still?

There is no other possible designation for R3-25SC but I would amend such with var.2 for the thin diameter models (R3-25SCvar.2). Thinking along the lines of Krause World Coins I am not currently further bifurcating in reference to straight clip v hump clip though consideration of this could enter in more variations of R3-25SC as there are several variations on this designation (even 3-25 nib v 3 nib could be another valid variation). None of these variations negate the fact that the pen is a R3-25SC.

Roger W.


Let's see if can follow...


Your R3-25SC is the standard diameter orange pen short 3-25 line?

You note that the first 3-25 black pens were slender even while Jade and Coral (orange) were standard girth.

Black standard pens were 5-30 otherwise looking like the standard 3-25 Jade and Coral.

What info do you have that Jade 3-25 became slender in 1930, as last catalogue for flat-top is 1929?

You are extrapolating then for the orange pens going slender in 1930, vs parallel production>

-d
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#8 Roger W.

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 07:34 AM

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1930 dates to after the last catalogue appearance of flat-tops which was in the 1929 catalogue, no?

Yet the uncatalogued slender orange (coral) pens we discuss are found with both the early high set clip and late low humped clip (as per my shot above).

So...

1) Do you have post 1929 info to date intro of slender flat top 3-25 (except black) to post 1929?

2) Do you suggest then that the switch on the uncatalogued (at the time) flat-tops from post-1920 were still made with high-set clip switching to humped clip later still?



Let's see if can follow...


Your R3-25SC is the standard diameter orange pen short 3-25 line?

You note that the first 3-25 black pens were slender even while Jade and Coral (orange) were standard girth.

Black standard pens were 5-30 otherwise looking like the standard 3-25 Jade and Coral.

What info do you have that Jade 3-25 became slender in 1930, as last catalogue for flat-top is 1929?

You are extrapolating then for the orange pens going slender in 1930, vs parallel production>

-d




David;

First off we are talking about the same catalog as it is typically called the 1930 (undated) though I readily concede that it must have been developed partly or perhaps even wholly in 1929. The last page of the folio catalog called 1928 with pages so dated is the balance page dated 1929.

Jade 3-25's never became slender, they were always slender as were the 46's that preceded them. The only standard girth jade was the 5-30 line which was not in keeping with the conversion of the 46 line. That is why you have to follow the conversions because it is not just that 22's became 3-25's and 46's became 5-30's - that simply did not happen coral 46's became 3-25's and not 5-30's as did the black 46 counterpart. Jade in '24 was only a lifetime pen, issued briefly in late '26 until replaced circa 1928 as a 46 and then issued in the 7-30 and the 5-30 lines not in the 3-25 line until late the same as when it was issued as a 46 - jade had been reserved for the bigger pens. When, or perhaps slightly precedent, the jade 3-25's were introduced in the catalog circa 1930 with hump clips clear from the lower position shown in the catalog and known examples, the part of the line of 3-25's not in the slender size (i.e. the coral 3-25's) were brought down to that standard. That is not in the catalog and is speculation due to the later nature observable on the thin R3-25 pens. None of the thin R3-25's are stamped in the early method with 3-25 on the top of the cap. They seem to me contemporaneous with the thin J3-25's which are still numbered J3-25SC in the case of the Jade short clip 3-25. The same would clearly hold with R3-25SC. I think there is no way in hell that thick R3-25's were made at the same time as thin R3-25's one gave way to the other. You will concede I am sure that there are no standard girth R3-25's with hump clips? We don't have thin coral showing early attributes and we don't have standard coral showing late attributes even though we are talking a period from 1928 thru no later than Christmas 1932 as the R code is not on the order blank for Christmas terms (not even for pencils). Even with the thin corals with straight clips they are not stamped 3-25 on the cap as the first 3-25 were.

Roger W.

#9 david i

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 04:25 AM

David;

First off we are talking about the same catalog as it is typically called the 1930 (undated) though I readily concede that it must have been developed partly or perhaps even wholly in 1929. The last page of the folio catalog called 1928 with pages so dated is the balance page dated 1929.

Jade 3-25's never became slender, they were always slender as were the 46's that preceded them. SNNIIIIIPPPPP We don't have thin coral showing early attributes and we don't have standard coral showing late attributes even though we are talking a period from 1928 thru no later than Christmas 1932 as the R code is not on the order blank for Christmas terms (not even for pencils). Even with the thin corals with straight clips they are not stamped 3-25 on the cap as the first 3-25 were.

Roger W.


Roger, that was a heck of a paragraph to digest. Let's take step by step. Keep in mind, not many collectors (my assertion) know model numbers and not many even have dived into the nuances of 1920's model evolution. While perhaps this has been evaluated in various pen threads before, it is not unreasonable to start from scratch an to take small bites ;)

First off we are talking about the same catalog as it is typically called the 1930 (undated) though I readily concede that it must have been developed partly or perhaps even wholly in 1929. The last page of the folio catalog called 1928 with pages so dated is the balance page dated 1929.


I'm not sure we discuss same catalogue, so let us clarify.

I'm referencing the catalogue that introduces the Balance, shows some of the Transitional/Half-Balance pens, and still shows pure Flat-Tops, the latter still shown with high-set non-hump clip, noting that Balance shows the new hump clip which is found as well on those uncatalogued late Flat-Tops we often discuss. I have considered this a 1929 catalogue. Your view?

Jade 3-25's never became slender, they were always slender as were the 46's that preceded them. The only standard girth jade was the 5-30 line which was not in keeping with the conversion of the 46 line. That is why you have to follow the conversions because it is not just that 22's became 3-25's and 46's became 5-30's - that simply did not happen coral 46's became 3-25's and not 5-30's as did the black 46 counterpart.



OK. This was where things were a bit muddled for me. It will be time soon to use... images. But I believe I follow now. Let's lay it out in an instructional sequence.

1. During the hard rubber by the time of the transition to plastic, we had in general of course slender, standard and oversized pens, mostly in black- smooth or with various chasings- and some in orange (let's ignore mottled for now). Lifetime HR pens were had in black only. Later you can help with which sizes were found in black Lifetime (white dot). But, Standard pens were available in non-Lifetime Black and non-Lifetime Orange. The standard size non-Lifetime (non White Dot) pens in black and in orange were the 46-Special. Slender non-lifetime pens included the 22-Student (boxy chasing iirc). Obviously there were no green rubber pens.

2. When plastic kicked in, we of course had Lifetime pens as well 46-Special pens and eventually 5-30 and 3-25 non-Lifetime pens, representing renamings of 46-special.

A. Jade was released only Lifetime or... was the new Jade color in non-Lifetime (non-WD) form released slender (long and short) called 46-Special. With 46 Special as Slender Jade eventually would become 3-25 still Slender.

B. Prior Orange rubber became Orange plastic (non-WD for all) and maintained standard girth (long and short) also becoming 46-Special. 46 Special in Standard orange eventually would become 3-25 still Standard.

C. Prior Black Slender 22 became Black Slender 3-25.

D. Prior rubber Black Standard 46-special became Standard 46-special in plastic, later becoming 5-30?

So, at the start of the Plastic Era we have:

  • Slender Jade as 46-special eventually becoming slender 3-25 (or was Jade only Lifetime early on)
  • Standard Orange as 46-Special, eventually becoming Standard Orange 3-25
  • Standard Black as 46-Special, eventually becoming Standard Black 5-30
  • Slender B lack as 3-25
So, we had Jade and Black pens as slender 3-25 from start of plastic era and had Standard Orange and Black pens still named 46-Special, only to have those take new names (when?) in couple years, unfortunately taking different series names, Orange taking 3-25 and Black 5-30

So, after the name switch after the start of the plastic series we have:

  • Slender Jade still 3-25 (or was Jade 3-25 a late item)
  • Slender Black still 3-25
  • Standard Orange as 3-25
  • Standard Black as 5-30
So, where does Jade 5-30 fit into all this?

Jade in '24 was only a lifetime pen, issued briefly in late '26 until replaced circa 1928 as a 46 and then issued in the 7-30 and the 5-30 lines not in the 3-25 line until late the same as when it was issued as a 46 - jade had been reserved for the bigger pens.




Headache. This addresses what I left a bit open in last paragrpah.

You are saying early in plastic era Jade was only Lifetime, but there is gap in your dates. WHAT was issued briefuly in 1926? What was replaced by 46, 7-30 etc? Are you asserting Jade Lifetime was replaced by 1928? I'd had impression Jade was made throughout as a Lifetime pen at least. I will avoid doing outline until you clarify the quoted paragraph.

When, or perhaps slightly precedent, the jade 3-25's were introduced in the catalog circa 1930 with hump clips clear from the lower position shown in the catalog and known examples, the part of the line of 3-25's not in the slender size (i.e. the coral 3-25's) were brought down to that standard.



Yeah, I'm fairly lost now. You are saying Jade 3-25 first appears in catalogue as late as 1929/30 or you are saying the hump clip 3-25 Jade is shown there?

You are speculating that non-Slender 3-25's became Slender 3-25's then (justifying the off catalogue Slender Orange pens I discovered)?


That is not in the catalog and is speculation due to the later nature observable on the thin R3-25 pens. None of the thin R3-25's are stamped in the early method with 3-25 on the top of the cap. They seem to me contemporaneous with the thin J3-25's which are still numbered J3-25SC in the case of the Jade short clip 3-25. The same would clearly hold with R3-25SC. I think there is no way in hell that thick R3-25's were made at the same time as thin R3-25's one gave way to the other.



None of the thin orange pens have turned up imprinted in cap 3-25, i agree.

You have catalogue pages for low hump-clip 3-25's of any sort?

It might be that thick and thin 3-25's in orange might not have been made in parallel, but I'd like to clarify what we know of the other pens before I accept that as conclusion.

I note again that you seem to invoke the 1929/30 catalogue (assuming we discuss same catalogue) for the slenderizing of some 3-25 pens, but I note the orange pens are found both with early and late clips. This suggests clip evolution after the 1929/30 catalogue which showed only high-clip, right?

You will concede I am sure that there are no standard girth R3-25's with hump clips?



7th orange item (counting pens and pencils) in my tray in first post has a hump clip short orange standard girth pen.

We don't have thin coral showing early attributes and we don't have standard coral showing late attributes even though we are talking a period from 1928 thru no later than Christmas 1932 as the R code is not on the order blank for Christmas terms (not even for pencils). Even with the thin corals with straight clips they are not stamped 3-25 on the cap as the first 3-25 were.



Perhaps my ignorance of these speaking, but the thin orange pens are found with both high clip and with low-set hump clip. To me that makes for "early" and "late" features. If you are using those terms differently, please clarify. I cannot speak to the import of the order blank, as order blanks need not be complete, and I don't know that late order blanks such as 1936-7 catalogues (if we've seen the) show spots for those late flat-tops even though Daniel lays claim to evidence for flat-top production that late. Again, I have seen no slender Orange with 3-25 imprint, if that has significance.

regards

david

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#10 Roger W.

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:38 AM

David;

There is no 1929 catalog.

That made that clear. It is called the 1930 catalog and is not dated. We are talking about the same catalog as it is the only one directly after 1928 and the only one made until a desk set catalog of 1934. If it were truly 1929 it would be found in blazing color but it is not. Most of what is in the 1930 catalog are items prior to the depression as this catalog is loaded for bear and clearly meant for an economy flush with cash. The tell on the catalog being post depression is that there is no real color compared with '28 so the economy was clearly on the skids and costs were cut by the time the catalog hit the presses. As a sidebar the 1928 catalog was a folio affair in which new pages were to be added the last one of which is a 1929 balance introduction page. Another note of interest is that the 1930 catalog was used for several years as the copy I am familiar with has a holidays 1932 price sheet in it. Full pen catalogs did not return until 1935.

The 1930 catalog shows both high set clips on lifetimes and low set clips on 3-25's. Circa 1930 was a transition year with clips likely still straight when the year began and likely hump clips by the time the year was out. By the time the 3-25's were in the catalog hump clips were on those but not on the lifetimes which may not have yet switched or which updating the artwork was not considered important. This is why non stamped 3-25's on the cap with straight clips are not early 3-25's.

All of this discussion is made without much regard to lifetimes as they continue on with changes that often can only be dated by what is going on with non lifetime counterparts.

Jade in small diameter happens in isolated pockets. Jade 46's come out in late '26 and not in late '24 when jade is first used in lifetimes. Jade 3-25's come out in circa 1930 and not in 1928 when 3-25's were introduced. Jade was saved for big pens and if you wanted the new jade in 1924 you had to buy a lifetime pen so jade use in the small pens is evident at the end of the run. Jade 46's at the end of the 22, 46, Secretary lines and Jade 3-25's at the end of the limited guarantee lines (25 and 30 year guarantee pens). Jade 5-30's are a new thing as a standard 46 jade never existed so the 5-30 is not a translation but an entirely new pen.

As far as your example of a standard 3-25 coral with a hump clip I have to discount is validity as it is a service pen and does not conform to any of the 3-25 rules - it is also a special hump clip with the peaked clip - see Daniel if you want to know about these.

So there are several phases in 3-25 pens -

A. Initial production 1928-1929
B. First change drop the cap imprinting circa early 1930
C. Hump clips circa later 1930
D. 3 nibs instead of 3-25 nibs circa 1932 (memory on this)

The jade 3-25 was introduced by point C in a small diameter. The examples of the small diameter straight clip corals intro at point B but, still 1930 production.

I had this all neatly worked out until you introduced the thin coral wrinkle a few years ago. I don't make a lot of shows and never lucked on hitting a thin diameter on EBay though I had not looked for a hump clipped coral which would have been a variation worth having but, there are so many variations worth having. Daniel and I both have flattops with peaked flat ball clips and war time gold over silver bands which would be circa 1942. Flattops never received radius clips.

I am open to considering counter evidence but, have not seen any to date. I would argue that a wartime 5-30SC is still just that as no other alternative numbering system is known to have existed. So in keeping with that a thin R3-25SC is still a variation of a R3-25SC.

Correction on your part 2. When small pens went plastic the models remained the same just that plastic did not accommodate any chasing schemes. My experience with these are that 46's are common in plastic and rare in HR whereas the 22 is the opposite - common in HR but rare in plastic. So HR thru circa 1924/5 then plastic thru circa 1928. The 22, 46 and Secretary end in circa '28 and are replaced by the 3-25, 5-30 and 7-30. This is one of the unusual times when you can point to Sheaffer ending a series and not merely continuing a series with no advertising or catalog support.

Start of plastic era - you are actually talking about the start of the limited guarantee period and not the start of plastic.

So, Jade 3-25's with low hump clip are in the 1930 catalog. High placed clip lifetimes are also there so the transition of clip is clearly 1930. Jade 3-25's are thin diameter. Coral 3-25's go to the thin diameter in 1930 but still while straight clips were in use. Anything post 1928-29 is late production limited guarantee.

Roger W.

#11 david i

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:34 PM

Rare late standard-girth orange Sheaffer with low-set hump-clip, a Sheaffer service pen. Recent acquisition from ebay. Might be my second. Isn't there one in the tray at top of this thread?

 

 

sheaffer_flattop_orange_servicepenC950.j

 

regards

 

david


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#12 david i

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 01:06 AM

Happy David. Took a chance on a limited-photo limited-description ebay ad and ended up with a heretofore unseen Sheaffer orange "flat-top" variant from the late 1920s.  They're still out there, folks. No joke.


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#13 david i

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Posted 09 September 2015 - 03:14 PM

Both pens in the pic below are short standard-diameter pens. A few years back I'd discovered off-catalogue *slender* orange pens, with both early style (high-set straight clip) and late style (lower-set hump clip). Both might be relatively late production for flat tops.

 

 

But, at  San Francisco last month I picked up my  first standard-diameter orange flat-top Sheaffer (besides some mixed-bag Service pens) to have the late low-set hump clip. The pic below shows that pen on left along with typical standard-diameter "3-25" high-set straight-clip pen.

 

 

sheafferflattop_orangepair_lateearly950.


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#14 david i

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 01:53 AM

A follow up to the post immediately prior to this.  I'm on a roll lately with Sheaffers. In this long running thread we've seen expansions beyond  the typical and catalogued standard-diameter Sheaffer flat-tops in orange celluloid ("Coral"). Those catalogued variants were offered standard diameter long with clip, short with either clip or ring, with either "3-25 markings" or "46 Special" markings.  Basic appearance and trim is similar for the two groups of markings. So, six pens that look like three compose the core variants.

 

We've seen off-catalogue slender pens in orange with early and late clip styles, also with ring top, offering 5 more variants.

We've seen a couple standard-diameter pens with wide cap bands, probably relatively made early in the run.

We've seen a couple-three (I still have to show one) standard-diameter bandless pens.

 

We've seen some standard-diameter short "service" pens that offer late flat-ball or humped (full ball) clip pens.

 

Until the prior post here , no one had owned up to seeing "late" standard diameter pens that instead of the high-set "straight" clip have either the humped low-set full ball clip or even the later flat-ball clip.  In some chat or another Roger had mentioned that such clips turn up so far only on service pens.

 

In the last post I offered a recently acquired standard-diameter short orange flat-top pen with the low-set humped ball clip (later than the straight-clips), but was not a service pen.

 

Now, in this post I offer something special in same vein. An even later seeming orange short flat-top in standard diameter, but with the flat-ball clip, something introduced in 1934.  This pen has no service markings.

 

Earlier in this thread Roger had offered,

I think there is no way in hell that thick R3-25's were made at the same time as thin R3-25's one gave way to the other. You will concede I am sure that there are no standard girth R3-25's with hump clips?

 

 

 

The game gets more interesting :)

 

sheafferflattop_orangepair_late_standard

 

regards

 

david


David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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