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Sheaffer Balance Carmine Eye Candy.


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#1 david i

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 02:27 AM

In keeping with my theme this week of offering art shots and collection shots from my Sheaffer Balance collection, I am pleased tonight to offer pens in Sheaffer's Carmine (red striped) celluloid. I definitely do not pursue Carmine in completist fashion. This shot has most but not all of my Carmine pens, a nice mini collection. I wanted a clean OS and I hunt most off-catalogue variants.

Only one pen in this bunch has trim features catalogued in USA Sheaffer literature. I'll offer the usual challenge of "can you identify all the anomalies" and will offer a high-res print to the first to pretty much nail it. I will ask prior winners to hold back, as I don't want the prizes to go all to the same aficionado, That said, if anyone actually wants to buy copies of some of these, well, they won't cost too much ;)

Enjoy!

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regards

David
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#2 Pedro

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 04:15 PM

This thread is making me envious Posted Image
You just had to post a pic of Carmines, didn't you. Posted Image
Pedro
Looking for a Sheaffer OS Balance with a Stub nib and other OS Oddities.

#3 Teej47

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:30 PM

Well, lets see how far off my wag is...
First pen looks to me to be OS with a wide band with a milled border/edge (either that or a milled band with an unmilled cartouche for engraving);
Second pen I believe is standard size with same sort of band as the first, but with clip I'd expect to see on something made earlier than this would have been;
Third pen looks like a regular OS to me (something special about the nib, perhaps?);
Fourth pen would be a "Milady" with a fish scale pattern wide band;
Fifth one must be Canadian with WASP style "reverse" trim;

Last pen I believe is long slender size... for some reason I expect to see that clip in silver marked with "Sheaffer Jr" and no white dot (maybe because I have a green one so configured). Not sure if the lack of anything on the clip is of any significance or not.

So am I way out in left field?

Tim












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#4 Roger W.

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:01 PM

The last pen didn't click with me at first and I couldn't figure that it wasn't the catalog one. The last one is odd due to the flatball clip on a white dot model especially as the carmine pattern didn't come out in 1939 and white dot flatball combo is generally 1935 though there are exceptions to this. Slap my forehead - I was way slow on this one.

Roger W.

#5 Pedro

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:55 PM

Is that the correct box for those pens? or for Flat-Tops?
Pedro
Looking for a Sheaffer OS Balance with a Stub nib and other OS Oddities.

#6 Roger W.

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:45 AM

Is that the correct box for those pens? or for Flat-Tops?


The large stylized S was used thru 1930 but, yes the box is more correct for flattops.

Roger W.

#7 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:56 AM

The large stylized S was used thru 1930 but, yes the box is more correct for flattops.

Roger W.



Yeah, vaguely recall seeing early Balance ads with that "S" or something similar.

But the box serves mainly as a theme-related prop. Gives better angle for lighting. Breaks the monotony. Isn't overwhelming as would be some of the patterned papers.

-d


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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#8 JonSzanto

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 12:59 AM

David: I can't think of a better place to put this (and I sent you a PM but not sure if you saw it) - you present some of the most beautiful pen photography I've come across. Obviously you shoot A LOT of photos to get work done, but so many (like the one above) are wonderful in terms of placement, lighting, etc. Really enhances one's experience as they are learning more about pens!

#9 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 01:45 AM

Well, lets see how far off my wag is...
First pen looks to me to be OS with a wide band with a milled border/edge (either that or a milled band with an unmilled cartouche for engraving);
Second pen I believe is standard size with same sort of band as the first, but with clip I'd expect to see on something made earlier than this would have been;
Third pen looks like a regular OS to me (something special about the nib, perhaps?);
Fourth pen would be a "Milady" with a fish scale pattern wide band;
Fifth one must be Canadian with WASP style "reverse" trim;

Last pen I believe is long slender size... for some reason I expect to see that clip in silver marked with "Sheaffer Jr" and no white dot (maybe because I have a green one so configured). Not sure if the lack of anything on the clip is of any significance or not.

So am I way out in left field?

Tim


Hi Tim,

A good stab. Let's break it down. My comments in red

First pen looks to me to be OS with a wide band with a milled border/edge (either that or a milled band with an unmilled cartouche for engraving);

Yes, It is the OS Carmine with the off-catalogue cap-band often called "Jeweler's". Of late, besides reference to Parker off-catalogue bands there has been some stronger evidence showing these bands might have been used for pens aimed at certain Jewelry shops.


Here's a thread on that.

http://fountainpenbo...pen-double-band


Second pen I believe is standard size with same sort of band as the first, but with clip I'd expect to see on something made earlier than this would have been;

I can give a little wiggle on this one, as both this pen and the first pen show mostly the cartouche of the band with limited lines exposed. That you slightly misidentify the cap-band is forgivable. That you missed a clue on the pen that would have to exclude the cap-band being the classic off-catalogue Jeweler's Band cannot be overlooked though ;)


I won't give the answer having now given that clue. You or others can look closely at that pen again to answer two questions. a) What about the pen- even if you cannot see band details perfectly- excludes the Jeweler's band noted for pen one and B) what then is the pen.


Third pen looks like a regular OS to me (something special about the nib, perhaps?);

Good call. It is the one typical catalogued pen in the bunch.


Fourth pen would be a "Milady" with a fish scale pattern wide band;

Heh. I never could memorize the names of the four tiers of slender short pen, so you could be right or wrong in name if the pen were generic catalogued. That you identified the off-catalogue fish-scale band on a short/slender pen is fine for this one. If you can confirm the 2nd tier non-lifetime radius pen is MIlady, all the better for my education. The caveat is that the fancy-band pens sometimes mix higher and lower line features, so the typical names can be a bit blurry anyway.



Fifth one must be Canadian with WASP style "reverse" trim;

More or less. It is Canadian, it has a WASP-ish clip, albeit NOT set in military fashion (at top of pen) as are the WASP pens proper. Reverse trim becomes blurred in this context. Just as all color Junior line pens have white trim, so far my experience with these odd-clip Canadian pens is that all the short slender pens have white trim (though they are not Juniors, per se). So like the Junior this trim might not formally be "reverse". Not a problem.


Last pen I believe is long slender size... for some reason I expect to see that clip in silver marked with "Sheaffer Jr" and no white dot (maybe because I have a green one so configured). Not sure if the lack of anything on the clip is of any significance or not.

So am I way out in left field?

Tim


Miss on this one.


regards


David




David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#10 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 01:46 AM

The last pen didn't click with me at first and I couldn't figure that it wasn't the catalog one. The last one is odd due to the flatball clip on a white dot model especially as the carmine pattern didn't come out in 1939 and white dot flatball combo is generally 1935 though there are exceptions to this. Slap my forehead - I was way slow on this one.

Roger W.



You also did not then say, after the Slap, if you now know what it is... ;)

It is an interesting tweak on the theme. Tim did not nail this one.

regards

d



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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#11 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 01:47 AM

David: I can't think of a better place to put this (and I sent you a PM but not sure if you saw it) - you present some of the most beautiful pen photography I've come across. Obviously you shoot A LOT of photos to get work done, but so many (like the one above) are wonderful in terms of placement, lighting, etc. Really enhances one's experience as they are learning more about pens!




Thanks :)

I saw and appreciated the PM. Just was drowning last week and have been slow on emails.

-d


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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#12 Teej47

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 07:04 PM

Hmmmm...

I'm still hung up on the clips. First, third, and fourth pens have the clip I would expect to see. That's the clip that is shown on the Carmine Striated pens (and the other colors too, for that matter) in the '39 catalog (I peeked, since it can be seen online). The second and sixths pens respectively wear the second and fourth variations of the Balance clip, which isn't what I would typically expect to see on a Striated Carmine pen (especially the earlier clip on pen #2). Soooo....

Since OS and standard full length Balances are more or less the same length, pen #2 is clearly not "standard size". I still think it is of standard girth though, but short length (wouldja call that "short-standard?). The clip is out of phase, if you will, with this color by seven or eight years... and the "Sheaffer's" appears to be going the wrong direction (or maybe I just can't quite see it right). If I turn my head just right the lines on the cap band run parallel to the edge (sorta like a Valiant, but with more lines), so I do see now it's not "the same sort of band as the first".

Still kinda stumped by the last pen... unless the anomaly is the presence of the white dot with a clip that would have been the 'old style' when assembled. I do have a Carmine with this clip, but it's a little short thing with a #3 nib.

Hmmm...

Tim






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#13 JonSzanto

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 07:15 PM

That's the clip that is shown on the Carmine Striated pens (and the other colors too, for that matter) in the '39 catalog (I peeked, since it can be seen online).

Tim, could you provide a link for this? I'm just slowly starting to get into the history and chronology of these pens, and while I don't ever expect to end up with encyclopedic knowledge, it would be interesting to look at some of the catalogs of the period.

Maybe I'll make a post later today for historic Sheaffer sources, and collate all the links...

Cheers,
Jon

#14 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 07:26 PM

Hmmmm...

I'm still hung up on the clips. First, third, and fourth pens have the clip I would expect to see. That's the clip that is shown on the Carmine Striated pens (and the other colors too, for that matter) in the '39 catalog (I peeked, since it can be seen online). The second and sixths pens respectively wear the second and fourth variations of the Balance clip, which isn't what I would typically expect to see on a Striated Carmine pen (especially the earlier clip on pen #2). Soooo....




Peeking is ok. This is an open book test. How did I say it in another thread.... whatever grows the knowledge. Hmmm... perhaps that can be the Board's motto. Just need an artist to make a coat of arms.


Since OS and standard full length Balances are more or less the same length, pen #2 is clearly not "standard size". I still think it is of standard girth though, but short length (wouldja call that "short-standard?).



Good observation. It does rather appear to be a Stubby, the collector name for the Short Standard pens. They are better known in early colors. I believe I've not seen red Stubby catalogued, though no doubt Daniel has more familiarity on that point than do I. But that clip...

In ECG reading and rash interpretation (the skin condition, not suggesting rushed impetuousness), if something does not ring bells the first thing to do is step back and retreat to description. What is the name for that clip. What does that clip usually associate with for catalogued pens?


The clip is out of phase, if you will, with this color by seven or eight years... and the "Sheaffer's" appears to be going the wrong direction (or maybe I just can't quite see it right). If I turn my head just right the lines on the cap band run parallel to the edge (sorta like a Valiant, but with more lines), so I do see now it's not "the same sort of band as the first".


Yes. The clip seems too early for a Carmine. Even if the Stubby size does not seem (or in fact is not, idunno) odd, the clip is the tell. What does a full-ball "early" clip on a later color mean, even before we worry about anything else?

Very good eye on the cap-band now. I was going to let the band pattern slide as the picture is iffy. The lines that show clearly wrap around the pen rather than runn longitudinally. Hmmm. That something we did NOT see on the Ebonized pic.

So... thoughts?

Still kinda stumped by the last pen... unless the anomaly is the presence of the white dot with a clip that would have been the 'old style' when assembled. I do have a Carmine with this clip, but it's a little short thing with a #3 nib.

Hmmm...

Tim


The last pen is full sized... long standard. The flat ball clip indeed (reinforcing what has come up in couple other posts) is a correct finding for 3rd and 4th tier Balances during this late era, pens that are slender, either long or short, with gold-filled trim where expected if #3 nib for third tier pen and with white trim and Junior nib on 4th tier pens. But this is a long standard and it is white dot... 1st tier pens.

As an aside- and i must check when I have access to pen again- it might be an anomalous smooth clip, vs just having lost the expected "Sheaffer's" stamp in the resolution and lighting. That aside, what you need to think on is what does it mean to see an "early" (same tale really as the other pen) clip on a late high line full size striped pen with normal cap-band? Also, note the white dot seems small. This to me is a marker for what's up too.

If this remains hopeless, lemme know, and I'll do the reveal.

d
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#15 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 07:33 PM

Tim, could you provide a link for this? I'm just slowly starting to get into the history and chronology of these pens, and while I don't ever expect to end up with encyclopedic knowledge, it would be interesting to look at some of the catalogs of the period.

Maybe I'll make a post later today for historic Sheaffer sources, and collate all the links...

Cheers,
Jon



Hi Jon.

Sounds like a nice idea. Start it and if helpful perhaps I can convince the Admin to pin it at top of the Sheaffer forum ;)

Recognizing that most budgets have limits, one of the best investments in my view is to buy the available color copies of original catalogues. Bill's site had many, though I think he is migrating to downloadable forms. Too the PCA for lousy $40/yr give you access to- no joke- thousands of pages of black/white catalogue copies that can be downloaded and printed.

Riffling through a print catalogue, correlating dates and styles, is how most of us with heavy knowledge of models gained it. ;)

regards

d



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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#16 KrazyIvan

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:01 PM

Wow. Just wow. I don't think I could memorize all the details. I need to have one of these pens. :D



#17 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:04 PM

Wow. Just wow. I don't think I could memorize all the details. I need to have one of these pens. :D






Part of the charm of collecting old pens. On one hand, there is a large range of basic core material out there. Buy from a reliable source, no worries. Some of us like pursuing the esoteric. There is fun in finding oddities and rarities. Of course, too, knowledge is power. Being aware of the exotica lets one find things that others might miss or not appreciate. Don't let these details cause consternation. I've been tossing up advanced and challenging pens in some of these images to give readers who know a fair bit about them a run for their money :)

The Parker images I've posted the last few days share a bit of this challenge.

I am overdue to post some sort of basic Balance profile.

regards

david
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#18 JonSzanto

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:08 PM

Sounds like a nice idea. Start it and if helpful perhaps I can convince the Admin to pin it at top of the Sheaffer forum ;)

I'll do it.

Recognizing that most budgets have limits, one of the best investments in my view is to buy the available color copies of original catalogues. Bill's site had many, though I think he is migrating to downloadable forms. Too the PCA for lousy $40/yr give you access to- no joke- thousands of pages of black/white catalogue copies that can be downloaded and printed.

Riffling through a print catalogue, correlating dates and styles, is how most of us with heavy knowledge of models gained it. ;)

Xlnt. I may go the PCA route. Could you be a little more specific as to Bill's site?

#19 david i

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:13 PM

I'll do it.


Xlnt. I may go the PCA route. Could you be a little more specific as to Bill's site?




http://billspens.com/

regards,

-d
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#20 JonSzanto

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 08:16 PM

http://billspens.com/

Thanks, you're a babe!

ETA: Oh, man, I'm having a good laugh - Google searching on PCA leads to, among others:

Poodle Club of America
PokerStars Caribbean Adventure
Professional Cowboy Association

The swag from these places would be worth the price of admission...




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