9 replies to this topic

[Hugh]

Quite often you see pens on ebay advertised as Symetriks, but are they? The Endura and Endura /Symetrik have the benefit of the plastic cresent moulded into the cap making id. easy.
Here's how to tell the difference, the one on the left is a Symetrik, the right a Toledo.
1. All Symetriks have this stamped on the barrel, if Symetrik isn't there it's not!!
2. The cap bands on the Toledo are narrower.
3. The Toledo lever is shorter.
4. The Symetrik has a greater diameter ( difficult to tell in a photo )
5. The nib is smaller and the feed an older style Conklin without any edge slits near the section.

With this info. those unfamiliar with these pens should be able to avoid purchasing the "wrong" model, even in a poor posting at least one of the identifing features should be visible. Hope this is of some help to would be buyers.

Regards
Hugh

Edit to add: The same applies to Enduras and Endura /Symetriks as well if the cap isn't turned clip up or visible.

[david i]

Quite often you see pens on ebay advertised as Symetriks, but are they? The Endura and Endura /Symetrik have the benefit of the plastic cresent moulded into the cap making id. easy.
Here's how to tell the difference, the one on the left is a Symetrik, the right a Toledo.
1. All Symetriks have this stamped on the barrel, if Symetrik isn't there it's not!!
2. The cap bands on the Toledo are narrower.
3. The Toledo lever is shorter.
4. The Symetrik has a greater diameter ( difficult to tell in a photo )
5. The nib is smaller and the feed an older style Conklin without any edge slits near the section.

With this info. those unfamiliar with these pens should be able to avoid purchasing the "wrong" model, even in a poor posting at least one of the identifing features should be visible. Hope this is of some help to would be buyers.

Regards
Hugh

Edit to add: The same applies to Enduras and Endura /Symetriks as well if the cap isn't turned clip up or visible.

Interesting info. As I have some nice Conklins and sell some now and then but have not done rigorous review, I wish to be certain I have some terms straight or that you do or that we use 'em the same way

Endura, the high line pen, started as flat-top and later became Symmetrik. So I concur there is Endura (proper) and there is Endura Symmetrik.

Both styles are found with non-Endura level cheaper cousins, flat top non-Enduras (eg. the vaunted "Halloween pen") and non-Endura streamline pens.

I have couple streamline non-Enduras at home, but have not louped them of late.

Quite often you see pens on ebay advertised as Symetriks, but are they? The Endura and Endura /Symetrik have the benefit of the plastic cresent moulded into the cap making id. easy. Here's how to tell the difference, the one on the left is a Symetrik, the right a Toledo.

Are you suggesting that amongst the non Endura Symmetrik (non highline) streamlined Conklins from this era that some are marked "Symmetrik" while others are not marked that way? I assume both are marked Toledo for location of factory, but do you suggest some have a more bold "TOLEDO" as in a model or line name.

I'm just not sure I've seen (or looked) to see if there are non-Endura pens still marked Symmetrik.

regards

David

[Hugh]

Interesting info. As I have some nice Conklins and sell some now and then but have not done rigorous review, I wish to be certain I have some terms straight or that you do or that we use 'em the same way

Endura, the high line pen, started as flat-top and later became Symmetrik. So I concur there is Endura (proper) and there is Endura Symmetrik.

Both styles are found with non-Endura level cheaper cousins, flat top non-Enduras (eg. the vaunted "Halloween pen") and non-Endura streamline pens.

I have couple streamline non-Enduras at home, but have not louped them of late.



Are you suggesting that amongst the non Endura Symmetrik (non highline) streamlined Conklins from this era that some are marked "Symmetrik" while others are not marked that way? I assume both are marked Toledo for location of factory, but do you suggest some have a more bold "TOLEDO" as in a model or line name.

I'm just not sure I've seen (or looked) to see if there are non-Endura pens still marked Symmetrik.

regards

David

I'm only talking streamlined models, and in the case of the Endura only those that have the cresent below the clip. When Conklin introduced the streamlined Endura it also released a sub-Endura model that was visually similiar but of lower quality (aka Toledo streamline). Three high end models seem to have been produced, the Endura, Endura/Symetrik and Symetrik (all are marked as such on the barrel)....all to me seem tobe the same pen, quality etc with the Symetrik missing out on the moulded cresent in the cap.
In the photo the pen on the left is marked Symetrik ( and minus the cresent in the cap identical to the Endura etc) below the standard Conklin info as you would see on an Endura or Endura Symetrik.
The pen on the right has the same manufacturer imprint minus a model name and is the lower line model. It is difficult to tell the difference between a Symetrik and the cheaper model without the moulded cresent in the cap based on a photo without knowing what to look for. Here's an example of incorrect model name usage Conklin , this is not a Symetrik ( but this seller prefers not to listen) and one of reasons I put this post up.
I'm really only trying to show the visible differences between the high end models and the lower end, if that makes any sense...and hopefully avoid costly mistakes.

Regards
Hugh

....I'll have to have a look and see which of us is spelling Sym(m)etrik correctly....

[david i]

I'm only talking streamlined models, and in the case of the Endura only those that have the cresent below the clip. When Conklin introduced the streamlined Endura it also released a sub-Endura model that was visually similiar but of lower quality (aka Toledo streamline). Three high end models seem to have been produced, the Endura, Endura/Symetrik and Symetrik (all are marked as such on the barrel)....all to me seem tobe the same pen, quality etc with the Symetrik missing out on the moulded cresent in the cap.
In the photo the pen on the left is marked Symetrik ( and minus the cresent in the cap identical to the Endura etc) below the standard Conklin info as you would see on an Endura or Endura Symetrik.

The pen on the right has the same manufacturer imprint minus a model name and is the lower line model. It is difficult to tell the difference between a Symetrik and the cheaper model without the moulded cresent in the cap based on a photo without knowing what to look for. Here's an example of incorrect model name usage Conklin , this is not a Symetrik ( but this seller prefers not to listen) and one of reasons I put this post up.
I'm really only trying to show the visible differences between the high end models and the lower end, if that makes any sense...and hopefully avoid costly mistakes.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

It's Symetrik (my bad).

Oh I get the goal here and think it is a good one (go figure)...

I'm just trying to sort details.

I realize you are defining/exploring terms for the various tiers of streamlined, post flat-top, pre-(more or less)-Nozac Conklins.

I started with flat-tops in part merely to point out that Conklin already was known for having a "style of the day" and for making high line and economy line versions of that pen. Clearly, that model- common I suppose to most makers- carried over to the Symmetrik era.

Sheaffer made Balance in white-dot and lower line non-white-dot lines, but both still were Balance. Parker at one point had Duofold and very Duofold-like non-Duofolds that were simply "Parker Lucky Curve" or "Parker Pen".

I truly am swamped now (long story) or would should some nice high-res images to show some of the details, but I can stumble through without those.

I remain a bit fuzzy on some of the nomenclature for the Conks. Your post above is helpful. Let's see if we are sharing views. Start with your quote:

Three high end models seem to have been produced, the Endura, Endura/Symetrik and Symetrik (all are marked as such on the barrel)....all to me seem tobe the same pen, quality etc with the Symetrik missing out on the moulded cresent in the cap.
In the photo the pen on the left is marked Symetrik ( and minus the cresent in the cap identical to the Endura etc) below the standard Conklin info as you would see on an Endura or Endura Symetrik.

SNIP

When Conklin introduced the streamlined Endura it also released a sub-Endura model that was visually similiar but of lower quality (aka Toledo streamline). Three high end models seem to have been produced, the Endura, Endura/Symetrik and Symetrik (all are marked as such on the barrel)....all to me seem tobe the same pen, quality etc with the Symetrik missing out on the moulded cresent in the cap.

The blue text above hits the points causing me confusion. Either some of my views of these are off (that happens) or there might be typos or...

You started out citing three high end models, starting with Endura, listed separately from Endura Symetrik. This led me to think you were starting out connecting to the flat-top era. Why? I have no recollection of ever seeing an Endura in streamlined (Symetrik) style that had only an ENDURA imprint. They all seem to be ENDURA SYMETRIK. Certainly I've not seen one in an "early" color.

So, are you sure there was a streamlined Endura that was not Endura Symetrik?

To my understanding the only high line (at least in catalogue positioning, price point, etc) streamlined pen (before Nozac showed up) was Endura Symetrik. I don't consider non Endura pens to be high line absent the crescent imprint (as with Parker's blue diamond Vacs for that era or Sheaffer's White Dot Balance etc), although some of that might be opinion.

So, there were not any streamlined Conks of this sort with crescent in cap that were not marked Endura Symetrik, were there?

You are though mentioning a pen that is marked Symetrik without being marked Endura, right? This one I'm guessing has no crescent symbol in the cap?

If you don't mind, let's start with this, so i can clarify my own knowledge and correct either of our gray points.

• Are there streamlined Enduras not marked Symetrik?
• Are there pens marked Symetrik alone (no "Endura")? If so no crescent symbol, right?
• Only Endura Symetrik has the crescent?
• Besides Endura Symetrik and Symetrik, proper (if that exists), there also are pens marked with the Toledo address with no Endura Symetrik or Symetrik alone, but even that pen does not have "Toledo" enlarged to suggest model name; it's just sort of a no-model-name Conk?

Thanks kindly,

David

[Hugh]

Hi David,

1.Yes, there are streamline models marked as Endura, the ones i've seen also carry a patent number and these have the crescent symbol. I assume these are the first model as the patent number isn't on Endura/Symetrik marked pens.

2. Yes

3. Those marked Endura also have the cresent. I assume the models in order of date went Endura, Endura/Symetrik and lastly Symetrik . Maybe the cresent was dropped from the last model as a cost saving measure ?

4. Correct. A second tier line (with a good colour range not seen in the high end) like the Duofold-ish pens compared to the Duofold .

All rather confusing...Anyway it's easy to pick the high end models like the Endura and Endura/Symetrik due to the crescent, somewhat harder with the Symetrik and the lower model. In the ebay link in my previous post the pen is the second tier model past off as a high end model, I know that but a lot wouldn't . His photos do show all the hallmarks of the lower model, the imprint and the feed not seen on the higher end pens.

In this topic More Conklins the grey Endura is marked as that, also the black streamline is an Endura (a different pen from the black in the OP). These where aquired in Australia (and I've seen others here as well) so possibly they where not marketed in the US, unlikely though. The patent number ( when looked up) refers to the model with the cresent above the clip, which I found interesting.

Regards
Hugh

[Rick Krantz]

what about the pens marked "Endura Symetrik Nozac" ?

[Hugh]

what about the pens marked "Endura Symetrik Nozac" ?

Hi Rick,

I'm only talking lever fillers here, Nozacs are out of my league!! I have seen them on ebay though, I don't recall seeing a Nozac labeled as anthing other than "Endura Symetrik Nozac" (which are probably early pens) or "Nozac". As far as I know there where 2 second line Nozac type pens, one a vac.filler called a "One Stroke" (which I've only seen in a small pen ~4.5" maybe EDIT: oops..looking on my watchlist there's a 5.25" one..) and a twist filler ( i assume a failed attemp to copy a Parker vacumatic).

Regards
Hugh

[Hugh]

The three different imprints on the lever fillers. I'm rather impressed my cheap camera actually managed the task!!....maybe it's a poor operator most of the time...

Regards
Hugh

[david i]

The three different imprints on the lever fillers. I'm rather impressed my cheap camera actually managed the task!!....maybe it's a poor operator most of the time...

Regards
Hugh

Thethree different imprints on the lever fillers. I'm rather impressed mycheap camera actually managed the task!!....maybe it's a poor operatormost of the time...

Regards
Hugh

Will have to comment more in couple days (unless lucky) as just finished mynearly month straight night shifts (sick associate. had to cover) and need days to catch up no life.

The red Symetrik is thinner pen? Otherwise I'd wonder if it just lost the often faint Endura imprint. In any case it if is thinner, then it might well be non-highline, not meant to have the crescent symbol

The gray pen you showed as an "Endura" non Symetrik raises questions, recognizing I'm not a pro at Conks. Gray was not, i believe, one of the early catalogued colors (appearing when Symetrik was catalogued along with flat top). I'm not certain your Gray is marked Endura (sans Symetrik) just because it is early. On other hand, many of the bes tParker Vacumatic chats I have are about pens that never appeared in catalogues, so I keep open mind.

Just to add complexity, if some of these seemingly anomalous (to me at least) pens were found in Australia, the question of "export model" might muddy the waters.

I need to mull it over a bit. Happy to see more pens.

david

[Hugh]

On close inspection of the Symetrik and the Endura Symetrik I can see three physical differences.
1. The barrel + section on the Symetrik is longer
2. The Symetrik cap is shorter, and overall shorter than the E/S
3. The Symetrik nib is smaller.

Both pens are the same width, or so close that I can't see any difference nor do I see any indication that the endura has worn off, the Imprint on that pen is very good. The smaller nib(edit to add: is larger than the Toledo in the OP) is the only "lesser" feature ( great nib though, one I use a lot and strangely the best feeling to use of my streamlines) and tends to lead me to a latter "times where tough" model ( pure speculation of course).

I'm open to suggestions about the grey, may well have been an export model. Certainly not a common colour.

Regards
Hugh

Edit to add: to recover from all those night shifts I'd recommend a few glasses (or bottles..) of quality Australian red wine, I prefer shiraz..., with a decent steak !! I hope your patients appreciate the effort, in a lot of rural Australia a local doctor is becoming a thing of the past, most won't work outside a major city.