Jump to content


Photo

A few more Hollands...


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 david i

david i

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 7,515 posts
  • LocationEast Coast USA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 06:04 PM

Hi,

I sent the ebay pen and question to noted Holland collector, Jack Leone. Here is his take...


David,

Had a quick look at the pen at this eBay link, and - in my opinion - it is not a John Holland pen, just the nib. I believe the seller has described it properly.

A couple of comments:

1) Holland eye droppers of this era with the open filigree overlays were pretty consistently in the pattern of my Holland overlay that you posted on FPB. All of mine (dozens) have the cap top covered. The pen on eBay is a different pattern, and this is the main reason that I don't think the cap & barrel are from Holland.

2) There is no set pattern on whether the overlays have a Holland imprint - some do and some don't. However, you can usually (but not always) find a Holland imprint on the hard rubber barrel, underneath the overlay.

3) i also check the design of the section and feed (hard to describe in words what 'correct' looks like.) Occasionally, the earlier feeds were imprinted with the Holland name. The end of the barrel often have a size (e.g. 52, 54, 74) imprinted.

4) According to the records at the Cincinnati Historical Society, 2 of John Holland's sons lived in Concinnati and one (James) lived in New York City. It is apparent that all 3 were part of the business. I suspect (but haven't yet proved) that James managed the business relationship with manufacturing jewelers in NYC. I believe that many, if not all, of the Holland overlays were made in NYC, and mounted on caps & barrels produced in Cincinnati.

For example, the repousse taper cap in the photo you posted looks like work from Heath. The 'poinsettia' pattern on the 'saddle' filler (pull filler) looks like a Carey pattern.

I'm not an expert on Parker or Waterman's overlays of the era, but the style and technique of the metal work looks so similar, that I wonder if all the major manufacturers used the same group of manufacturing jewelers in NYC , or perhaps in Rhode Island where A.T. Cross got its start. Don't really know ... an opportunity for further research.

By the way, James clearly managed Holland's export business. He also kept a keen eye on the competition. I read a letter that James wrote to his father suggesting that Holland produce and sell an accessory clip like Waterman's was doing. This was the genesis of the Holland 'Grip Clip'.


David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

Posted Image

#22 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 07:08 PM

Hi,

I sent the ebay pen and question to noted Holland collector, Jack Leone. Here is his take...


David,


By the way, James clearly managed Holland's export business. He also kept a keen eye on the competition. I read a letter that James wrote to his father suggesting that Holland produce and sell an accessory clip like Waterman's was doing. This was the genesis of the Holland 'Grip Clip'.


Fascinating. I've never before come across this much detail about Holland's pens. Thank you both.

For reference, here's the Grip Clip.

Posted Image

Posted Image

The two hoops hanging beneath the clip serve as a spring. Pushing down on the top of the clip raises the ball for easy removal from a pocket. When released, the clip snaps back onto the barrel. Depending upon the size, he sold them in German Silver for as much as 65¢. They were also available in silver, GF or 14K for 75¢, $1.50 and $3.00 respectively.

Now David, some more pens please?

Edited by Blotto, 25 December 2011 - 07:19 PM.


#23 david i

david i

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 7,515 posts
  • LocationEast Coast USA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 10:17 PM

Fascinating. I've never before come across this much detail about Holland's pens. Thank you both.

For reference, here's the Grip Clip.

Posted Image

Posted Image



Yep. Our wee Board might be the new kid on the block, but it is our hope to have something of substance to offer :)

Of course, we still could use more threads and posts... but we're making progress.

regards

david




David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

Posted Image

#24 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 10:57 PM

Well then, here's some bread and butter...

A BCHR #73 with a #13 nib...

Posted Image

a BCHR #72 with his #12 nib...,

Posted Image

and a clean little #72 ring top.

Posted Image

Remember, David, this is all about one-up-man-ship.

Happy Holidays,
Dan

#25 david i

david i

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 7,515 posts
  • LocationEast Coast USA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:11 PM

SNIP

Remember, David, this is all about one-up-man-ship.

Happy Holidays,
Dan




Nah, it's never about that for me... I have so little with which to play. Posted Image

It's all about growing the Knowledge ;)

Besides, not so sure how far up we can go from the few I showed earlier. Of course, I have images of about a hundred more...

-d


David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

Posted Image

#26 david i

david i

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 7,515 posts
  • LocationEast Coast USA

Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:41 PM

A not too bad Holland...

Posted Image



regards

David
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

Posted Image

#27 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 02 January 2012 - 12:15 AM

I re-shot the hatchets, so you can how/why they get their name.

Posted Image

Posted Image

And some fresh fodder, a stylo he called an Ink Pencil

Posted Image

#28 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 05 January 2012 - 07:06 PM

Here's another black pen, but this time sporting two green bands. Simple, but distinctive.
It has a 1915 patent imprint, so I'd guess it was made about the time he introduced his handsome "Jewel" series.
Also looks like the ring is a modern replacement.

Posted Image

#29 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 08 January 2012 - 10:28 PM

In his 1920 catalog Holland shows a line of pens called "Jewels". In Post #11 of this tread, DI added a great example of a triple band, full size Coral Flat Top.
There were 4 or 5 models in the line and at least 3 different treatments.
This model is a double band Ring Top (about 4⅝ inches, capped) with what was called a "shield" for personalization. All of the nibs in this series carried the "Jewel" imprint.

Posted Image

Posted Image

And here's a full size model with the same treatment that has one large band. It is currently at auction for a BIN of £350 ($540).

I think a simple, black pen with red end caps and gold hardware is just a knock-out.

Posted Image

Edited by Blotto, 08 January 2012 - 10:30 PM.


#30 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 13 January 2012 - 08:33 PM

Here's another ring top. This in Blue/Pearl. Can't find a source showing these domed end-caps to date this, but I'm guessing mid to late '20s.
The barrel cap is imprinted "D". If anyone can fix a date on this, I'd appreciate it.
I carries a "Jewel" nib, but unlike others in the stash, it does not have that designation on the barrel.
Really handsome material.

Posted Image

#31 Teej47

Teej47

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 527 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:04 PM

Here's another ring top. This in Blue/Pearl. Can't find a source showing these domed end-caps to date this, but I'm guessing mid to late '20s.
The barrel cap is imprinted "D". If anyone can fix a date on this, I'd appreciate it.
I carries a "Jewel" nib, but unlike others in the stash, it does not have that designation on the barrel.
Really handsome material.

Posted Image


Wow, what a beauty! Would love to see that one in person.

Awesome stuff, Dan. I'm really enjoying this thread, especially since these are not pens one sees every day. Thanks!

Tim
The only sense that's common is nonsense...

#32 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 20 January 2012 - 07:43 PM

Thanks, Tim. Appreciate your feedback.

This arrived a few days ago. Just got done cleaning and installing a new sac.
A large (13.4cm. 5.3"), Woodgrain Cigar.
Woodgrains I've seen from other manufacturers are typically a mahogany color with black grains. I find this unusual for its almost birch coloring and green grains. It sports a #2 nib, and I would expect it to be late '20s.

Posted Image

His pens certainly have style.

Dan

#33 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 03 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

Another example from Wirt's "Cigar" period, this has a rather 1930ish look. A rich Burgundy Marble Ring Top with his Tulip Logo on the lever spoon.
Like so many of his RT's this is a large pen...4½ inches capped.

Posted Image

Enjoy,
Dan

#34 Shadow Wave

Shadow Wave

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 04 February 2012 - 06:05 AM

Another example from Wirt's "Cigar" period, this has a rather 1930ish look. A rich Burgundy Marble Ring Top with his Tulip Logo on the lever spoon.
Like so many of his RT's this is a large pen...4½ inches capped.


I'm confused, again.:D

Is it a Wirt or a John Holland?

Lovely whatever it is.

#35 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 04 February 2012 - 05:41 PM


Another example from Wirt's "Cigar" period, this has a rather 1930ish look. A rich Burgundy Marble Ring Top with his Tulip Logo on the lever spoon.
Like so many of his RT's this is a large pen...4½ inches capped.


I'm confused, again.:D

Is it a Wirt or a John Holland?

Lovely whatever it is.


Doh!
It's a Holland.

DONT GET OLD.

Dan

#36 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 13 February 2012 - 12:50 AM

This takes us back a decade or so to Hollands Jewels.
The largest model he shows in his 1920 catalog is 5.3 inches capped, and they came in two styles.
One with a single, large cap-lip band (see an example in post #29 of this thread) and another with two small cap-lip bands.
The pen in post #29 was offered for $8.00, while the two band version was $9...a good deal of money at the time.

Here is a full size, two band Lapis Jewel that is not included in his 1920 catalog, and I think it's a knock-out.

Posted Image

Enjoy,
Dan

#37 Shadow Wave

Shadow Wave

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:17 AM

That is another awesome pen.:)

Amazing color for 1920. It has to be some kind of hard rubber, then?

#38 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:51 PM

That is another awesome pen.:)

Amazing color for 1920. It has to be some kind of hard rubber, then?


SW:
Thanks. It is pretty, isn't it?

It's celluloid. Hard rubber would not have endured the soaking/scrubbing needed to get the residual ink out of the cap.

Some of the Parker/Sheaffer/Waterman folks would be better able than I to more accurately date this material. Documentation
for those brands is much more thorough than it is for Holland. The Burgundy Marble that precedes it (to my eye, at least)
reminds me of of material used by Conway/Stewart for Relief pens made for Esterbrook that were described Morocco Red.

Dan

Edited by Blotto, 13 February 2012 - 05:32 PM.


#39 Shadow Wave

Shadow Wave

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 167 posts

Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:29 AM

It looks very much like the "lapis lazuli" plastic Duofold that Parker introduced in the later Twenties. According to the Zazove book on Duofolds, there were versions of this color with white specks and with black specks. I can't recall which came first and the book isn't handy now. But it stands to reason Holland bought the same material as Parker did, no?

#40 Blotto

Blotto

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 130 posts
  • LocationNorth OC, CA

Posted 17 March 2012 - 05:54 PM

Here's a Hatchet fill silver overlay RT that is 1920ish. (It has the same 1915 patent date seen on the Hatchets earlier in this thread).
The pen is fitted with one of his larger nibs (#14) and has a nice bit of flex to it.

When the pen arrived there was a heavy band of corrosion and dried ink where the barrel meets the plastic.
Cleaning that resulted in substantially "brightening" the pen. My wife tells me that there is an old caution about putting apples in a
silver bowl -- causes rapid tarnishing. What started out as a caution may turn out to be a nostrum. Would love to get some more
detail into the pattern.

I'm always surprised at the size of some Holland Ring Tops. This is 4.4 inches capped; rather long to hang from a watch chain
into a vest pocket or a ribbon around a woman's neck.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Off to get some apples.
Enjoy.
Dan

Edited by Blotto, 17 March 2012 - 05:55 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users