16 replies to this topic

[david i]

Evening,

A bit back I posted a photo of a Sheaffer sub-brand WASP-Clipper pen in pattern collectors call "circuit board" (available in a few colors with varied transparency pattern) with matching plastic pocket knife.

WASP CIRCUIT BOARD PEN WITH MATCHING KNIFE

While there have been occasional discussions regarding pocket knives that might have been issued with intent to sell with or match to pens (I have vague recollection of this perhaps being case with Wahl), there is no evidence that most of the period knives found in "pen plastic" were intended for sale with pens. I suspect it is more likely the pen makers could not keep plastics from leaking to manufacturers outside the field.

I've seen pocket knives done in stripes to match Parker's Vacumatic and Sheaffer Balance. Some colors are a perfect match to known pens; others are closely related though perhaps not identical. There is no well defined niche in the hobby for collecting items coincidentally done in matching materials. This is a separate scene from thermometer cases, holy water sprinklers, and even perfume bottles known from pen catalogues or carrying pen brand imprints. Knives done coincidentally in matching or nearly matching plastics remain curiosities, but carry charm no doubt for those who just like the plastics of the era.

They turn up on ebay, sometimes very cheaply.

In addition to the knife with WASP circuit board plastic from the link above, I just acquired one that appears to be at least closely related to Chilton's charteuse, a green-yellow with red and white veins. The knife actually leans more to green while the pen (as with most I've seen, perhaps all) leans yellow. Have most Chilton pens shifted (I've not seen pencils) a bit, or does the knife's backing of metal alter its apparent color? If neither, then the knife is a close rather than perfect match to original Chilton plastic.

Still, this makes for a nice pairing.

regards

david

[Rick Krantz]

You mean chilton "carnelian" ?

Like this one?

[david i]

You mean chilton "carnelian" ?

SNIP

Pwobabwy

I've heard 'em called Chartreuse, iirc, but I have no hard source for the name. Is Carnelian a formal Chilton name?

And... do some of them lean a bit more green?

regards

david

[Bill B]

Hello David,

I've heard the color described as both Chartreuse & Carnelian. I don't have immediate access to my pile of advertisements, but I don't recall one showing this particular colour. I'll dig around a bit and see if "Carnelian" pops up in any Chilton adverts or correspondence. I have several, ranging from badly discolored, (green turned brown), to what appears to be "perfect". They should lean more to the green as shown on Rick's FP. The pencils tend to show the best color. Since pencils have no sac or inner cap, your "guess" as to discoloration is correct IMHO. The plastic on the knife appears a bit different than the FP, but it's close enough to make a very nice pairing. I've never seen any Chilton adverts that include a knife but would love to get my hands one. When time permits, I'll try to find out how to upload a photo of a very nice Chilton Chartreuse MP.

All the best,

Bill B

[david i]

Hello David,

I've heard the color described as both Chartreuse & Carnelian. I don't have immediate access to my pile of advertisements, but I don't recall one showing this particular colour. I'll dig around a bit and see if "Carnelian" pops up in any Chilton adverts or correspondence. I have several, ranging from badly discolored, (green turned brown), to what appears to be "perfect". They should lean more to the green as shown on Rick's FP. The pencils tend to show the best color. Since pencils have no sac or inner cap, your "guess" as to discoloration is correct IMHO. The plastic on the knife appears a bit different than the FP, but it's close enough to make a very nice pairing. I've never seen any Chilton adverts that include a knife but would love to get my hands one. When time permits, I'll try to find out how to upload a photo of a very nice Chilton Chartreuse MP.

All the best,

Bill B

Hi Bill,

Info always appreciated

As to uploads. While each post allows uploading (images appear as tiny thumbnails pre-click), the system has storage for that capped at 500kb amongst all threads. Couple pics and no room left.

HOWEVER, FPB offers GALLERY, a tab at top of page that moves you away from FORUMS. In GALLERY we have a few topic Albums (more to come) AND each member can open a personal Album. To Albums you can upload images, and each member is offered 25MB of storage, enough generally for 100+ images. Once in Album, using the "share image" feature, if you copy the one line of BBC text for the image, you can paste it into any thread for perpetual use in discussions to come. Probably easiest to open one window for Gallery and another for the thread of interest. Allows pretty quick processing and gets easier with familiiarity.

regards

David

[AndyR]

..........

While there have been occasional discussions regarding pocket knives that might have been issued with intent to sell with or match to pens (I have vague recollection of this perhaps being case with Wahl), there is no evidence that most of the period knives found in "pen plastic" were intended for sale with pens. I suspect it is more likely the pen makers could not keep plastics from leaking to manufacturers outside the field.
.........

regards

david

While this may be true for US manufacturers, it certainly isn't true for the UK. Conway Stewart sold (and heavily advertised) four different sets featuring a matching penknife from the late 1920s to the late 1930s. What's more, they considered them important enough to produce (at least within three of the sets) pens with a particular band configuration that were only available within those sets. Given the amount of advertising that was invested in them it is amazing how few sets (even partially complete) appear to survive today and they are among the most desirable of items to a vintage CS collector. One of the sets, the number 54, featured a long Dinkie pen with matching pencil and penknife in a Morocco pochette, with mirror. The other three sets were boxed, a mint example from my collection (a number 77 set with Dandy 728 pen, Duropoint 2 pencil and matching penknife in lapis blue casein) is pictured here.



The penknife blades are marked 'Conway Stewart' and we know from pictures of their 1920s showroom that they also sold the penknives separately from display cards on a stationer's counter.

Andy

Edited by AndyR, 28 December 2011 - 03:05 PM.

[Rick Krantz]

The name carnelian is documented in chilton advertising and catalogs for this color. What I have found is the color varies with production. Earlier pens seem to be more yellow than green. Later pens, think Summit NJ and Chiltonians tend to be way more green. Hirsch has a great example of a more green than yellow pen. It's a high number color 10X so it was part of the late long island series, but carried thru to the end, wingflows, and Chiltonians. I never saw a golden quill in this color, but with late chiltons, nothing surprises me.

[david i]

The name carnelian is documented in chilton advertising and catalogs for this color. What I have found is the color varies with production. Earlier pens seem to be more yellow than green. Later pens, think Summit NJ and Chiltonians tend to be way more green. Hirsch has a great example of a more green than yellow pen. It's a high number color 10X so it was part of the late long island series, but carried thru to the end, wingflows, and Chiltonians. I never saw a golden quill in this color, but with late chiltons, nothing surprises me.

Hi Rick,

Thanks. In view of that information, until I hear of contrary material, I'll call this color Carnelian. The knife probably is bit more green than even the photo suggests. I'd be interested to see how closely it matches the greenest of pens out there. Maybe Hirsch can bring his pen to Philly.

regards

David

[david i]

While this may be true for US manufacturers, it certainly isn't true for the UK. Conway Stewart sold (and heavily advertised) four different sets featuring a matching penknife from the late 1920s to the late 1930s. What's more, they considered them important enough to produce (at least within three of the sets) pens with a particular band configuration that were only available within those sets. Given the amount of advertising that was invested in them it is amazing how few sets (even partially complete) appear to survive today and they are among the most desirable of items to a vintage CS collector. One of the sets, the number 54, featured a long Dinkie pen with matching pencil and penknife in a Morocco pochette, with mirror. The other three sets were boxed, a mint example from my collection (a number 77 set with Dandy 728 pen, Duropoint 2 pencil and matching penknife in lapis blue casein) is pictured here.



The penknife blades are marked 'Conway Stewart' and we know from pictures of their 1920s showroom that they also sold the penknives separately from display cards on a stationer's counter.

Andy

That is a sweet set. I am cheerfully envious

Does the knife have any markings regarding manufacturer?

regards

David

[Rick Krantz]

Here's a picture of Hirsch's...

[david i]

Here's a picture of Hirsch's...

That's pretty green. Might be a match.

-d

[Bill B]

Hiirch's "Carnelian" FP is superb. My best Carnelian color is a Long Island desk pen & trumpet. Looking at all of my Carnelian's would prove Rick right. They seem to get greener as the production year gets older. I have a Chiltonian that's very green. I have a Wingflow in this color, but it's discolored badly. I have it only because it's the only Wingflow I have in Carnelian. How it discolored brown from cap to barrel is anyone's guess.

How many Chilton catalogs are there? I only know of the 1937 Wingflow catalog. Everything else I have has come from research done by Rick, Jerry &etc. I do have several adverts that certainly help, and many books contain advertisements, but I'm not sure of factory names for each & every Chilton color. Cliff Lawrence called this color "green-red streaks". In any case, if any long Island catalogs have recently come to light, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

Cheers,

Bill B

[Rick Krantz]

Hirsh's carnelian comes via a team effort. I gave him the cap, since he had the rest of the pen, and was able to put that together. It truly deserved to go to complete the pen, as you can see, it made a nice piece. I figured he was a lot closer than I was, only thing I would have done different, "Wingflow Clip" yup.... that would have been a wingflow, thru and thru.

The only references I can offer are the 1937 Wingflow catalog, and I do believe I got a late Long Island advertisement (scan POOR quality) that lists the color varients.

I spent many years trying to find the ultimate LI in this color, and this effort, spread over 10 plus years, is the best I could come up with. I bet I owned at least 10 of these.... Hirsch's is nice, being a later pen, it really shows the darker green.

[Rick Krantz]

FWIW... here's the cap from Hirsch's pen as it came to me... Obviously, the Golden Quill clip is wrong. I could see the potential with this pen, I picked it up from Don Haupt, and the cap came along soon after.

[AndyR]

That is a sweet set. I am cheerfully envious

Does the knife have any markings regarding manufacturer?

regards

David

The knives are marked "Conway Stewart" on one blade and "Sheffield made" on the other. The city of Sheffield has always been the main centre in the UK for blades and knives of all types but there is no clue to the actual manufacturing company. You also occasionally see identical knives without the Conway Stewart marking, sometimes with advertising messages or logos on the cladding, so they were never exclusive to Conway Stewart. The basic design is always the same, with a cladding in a range of coloured plain or patterned casein or mottled vulcanite.
Andy

[david i]

A fellow over at Zosslist tried to give some grief for the description of Carnelian as a Chilton plastic, noting that a bunch of low line items also use the plastic, so why call it "Chilton"? Of course, pendom has a long and appropriate history of generalizing names known from specific high quality makers to appearances of that color in low-tier material. So, "Chilton Carnelian", "Waterman Mahogany", "Waterman Turquoise" and such are applied when such colors appear in Wearever, Arnold and and that ilk.

Turns out I own or have photographed some non-Chilton pens done in Chilton's Carnelian.


First, a good quality (but still sub Chilton) DIamond Point Long/Short pen.

Second, A no name desk pen with matching trumpet.

Third, a bit of a surprise. I was sorting a tray of Sheaffer sub-brand pens, placing them in a new cabinet, when I stumbled across a Sheaffer sub-brand Univer pen, a bit worse for wear, in this plastic. This one has ambered and has some brassing, but it could be worse, given the state of some Univer pens.






regards

David

[marcshiman]

Interesting that last night that I stumbled across this thread (searching Diamond Point long/shorts) as no less than three pens were auctioned last night on Ebay in this celluloid - a Parker Depression, a Univer, and this one.

 

This is a Mabie Todd Swan I believe, for which I was the only bidder. MT actually got a patent on the facets, and the cap band is the same as the other one I have (same size too). Assuming I'm right, this is one of the pens that came out right at the end of MT / America's life in 38 or so.

 

It looks like an ink stain in the cap which is a shame in what otherwise seems to be great color. Can anything be done regarding the celluloid near the lever box? 

Edited by marcshiman, 13 October 2014 - 08:28 AM.