31 replies to this topic

[BrianMcQueen]

Alright folks,

I'm stumped again. I found this pen at an antique store today, and I don't know what its story is. It is chased plastic, has a Christmas Tree feed, generic "Parker Pen" nib, a thrift-time imprint, and a hole at the back end where I would expect a button! What have I got? Half a combo pen? Most of a button filler that the threaded end somehow came out of? Here are some pictures...

Where there is a hole in the bottom end, you will see a little lip on the inside of the barrel. The pictures don't show it well, but it is just a little lip, not a step. I put together a little drawing in Paint to show you what I mean. There are no threads on that end, just the lip on the inside of the barrel...

Edited by RobertNFrappuls, 29 December 2011 - 06:04 AM.

[vintage penman]

Pardon my ignorance but is it possible that the boss for the button and blind cap was a friction fit ?

[BrianMcQueen]

Pardon my ignorance but is it possible that the boss for the button and blind cap was a friction fit ?

I don't know. I've only ever seen the threads for the button and blind cap turned as one piece with the barrel...

[John Danza]

Wow, this is a bit of a stumper. I think there's too much left of the barrel for it to be the pen portion of a combo. The button filler mechanism is turned with the barrel as one piece, as previously noted. The chasing has me stumped too, as Parker really wasn't doing chasing in the plastic era. I guess the botton filling portion could have broken when the button was being pulled out, with someone doing some home pensmiting by cutting it out with a lathe, but I don't get what the "fix" would be. Sorry, I'm not being much help here.

[david i]

Wow, this is a bit of a stumper. I think there's too much left of the barrel for it to be the pen portion of a combo. The button filler mechanism is turned with the barrel as one piece, as previously noted. The chasing has me stumped too, as Parker really wasn't doing chasing in the plastic era. I guess the botton filling portion could have broken when the button was being pulled out, with someone doing some home pensmiting by cutting it out with a lathe, but I don't get what the "fix" would be. Sorry, I'm not being much help here.

Hi John and Brian.

Neat pen. Staying away for the moment from "what is it?", I'll touch on couple peripheral issues.

John, I could be wrong, but I believe that even USA-Parker did make documented (at least "known") chased plastic pens. Some of the last of the low line flat-tops, DQ and such, with longitudinal, raised lines (still considered a form of chasing), were made from plastic. At least I believe so. I probably need to do friction test on couple I own. These would be non-streamlined pens from just before Parker went streamlined, which occurred around 1929

But, I'd thought USA-Parker did not do streamlined chased plastic pens and probably did not do chased non-streamlined plastic pens in the pattern Brian showed above. It seems Canada did make straamlined pens with this sort of chasing, based both on the Combo I recently described and on a related parker-Canada streamlined "no name" thrift-ish pen that resembles the pen we know from USA catalogues as the "raven black and gold" item. It has the same generally pre-streamlined-era chasing as your pen.

Your pen does resemble the Canadian "thrift" pen 1929+ styling (based on USA catalogues) and is the first I've seen in plastic with chasing in a USA-made streamline pen. Agree with John barrel seems long for being part of a Combo, though I'll need to confirm with my Combo. And, of course, your pen lacks the Combo top piece.

Will have to think on the back end. George has posted before about an anomalous USA_made Lucky Curve pneumatic filler pen. I recall we weren't wholly sure it was original, but were far from sure it was not. The back end seems famliar

Here is George's thread about the pneumatic-fill (Chilton-esque) slightly earlier-than-your-pen Parker Lucky Curve

Parker Lucky Curve with Pneumatic Filler

Here again is my recently found (only one known?) Parker Combo in chased (plastic) finish, this one from Canada. Again, I've not seen any USA made streamlined plastic Parker with this chasing pattern (prior to your pen). I have a "Thrift"-ish Parker Canada chased plastic pen of this sort, but it is buried. Will have to hunt for it.

regards

david

[BrianMcQueen]

I'll comment on a couple things here.

The pen is definitely plastic. I did a friction test, and don't smell that telltale smell.

As for the barrel length, it is much longer than we see on David's combo pen. However, it still seems pretty short compared to the cap length. Perhaps the lack of a blind cap is throwing me off a bit here.

I have not had this pen apart yet, but there are remnants of a sac in it. Also, note that there are no threads on the rear end anywhere.

An interesting pen indeed, isn't it? I couldn't pick it up fast enough for 7 dollars

Edited by RobertNFrappuls, 29 December 2011 - 05:09 AM.

[John Danza]

John, I could be wrong, but I believe that even USA-Parker did make documented (at least "known") chased plastic pens. Some of the last of the low line flat-tops, DQ and such, with longitudinal, raised lines (still considered a form of chasing), were made from plastic. At least I believe so. I probably need to do friction test on couple I own. These would be non-streamlined pens from just before Parker went streamlined, which occurred around 1929

But, I'd thought USA-Parker did not do streamlined chased plastic pens and probably did not do chased non-streamlined plastic pens in the pattern Brian showed above. It seems Canada did make straamlined pens with this sort of chasing, based both on the Combo I recently described and on a related parker-Canada streamlined "no name" thrift-ish pen that resembles the pen we know from USA catalogues as the "raven black and gold" item. It has the same generally pre-streamlined-era chasing as your pen.

Hi David,

You're absolutely right that Parker did straight lined plastic pens. I should have explained my thoughts better, because I don't think of the straight lines as "chasing", although you're right that they are. When I think chasing, I think of the angled patterns like we see on Robert's pen or on Jack Knife Safeties. I'm not aware that this style of chasing was done on streamlined pens, and your combo was the first time that I've seen a plastic streamlined with it.

[david i]

Here is a photo showing a USA Parker catalogue page for the streamlined plastic (not chased, but I believe with similar contour to your pen) "raven black and gold pen" along with a couple actual pens. Yes, this page shows bandless and double cap-band pens, but I have at least one pen with single thin cap-band and believe a slightly later catalogue (1932) shows that single band pen

Here is a variant shown in the 1932 catalogue with single thin cap-band

regards

David

[matt]

snip But, I'd thought USA-Parker did not do streamlined chased plastic pens and probably did not do chased non-streamlined plastic pens in the pattern Brian showed above. It seems Canada did make straamlined pens with this sort of chasing, based both on the Combo I recently described and on a related parker-Canada streamlined "no name" thrift-ish pen that resembles the pen we know from USA catalogues as the "raven black and gold" item. It has the same generally pre-streamlined-era chasing as your pen.

Your pen does resemble the Canadian "thrift" pen 1929+ styling (based on USA catalogues) and is the first I've seen in plastic with chasing in a USA-made streamline pen. snip

Should we avoid calling this a thrift or DQ, since it appears to be a "Black and Gold"? The "Raven Black and Gold" line is not streamlined in the 1929 catalog, is streamlined in the 1930 catalog, but both have double cap bands. Is the streamlined "Black and Gold" line in the 1932 catalog made of hard rubber or plastic? The last page of that catalog shows 6 pens with the same thin single cap band as the subject pen, and zooming in on Bill Acker's thumbnails it's readily apparent that 2 of the pens are plain, 2 have straight line chasing, and 2 have a curved chasing.

My question is, is that line around the barrel at the end of the chasing a groove or a joint? There's no line on the pneumatic filler shown above. Is there enough sac remnant in the subject pen to show a lengthwise groove/indentation from a pressure bar that you find in button fillers with hardened sacs? If not, then perhaps this pen is missing a pneumatic filler and blind cap...

[david i]

Should we avoid calling this a thrift or DQ, since it appears to be a "Black and Gold"? The "Raven Black and Gold" line is not streamlined in the 1929 catalog, is streamlined in the 1930 catalog, but both have double cap bands. Is the streamlined "Black and Gold" line in the 1932 catalog made of hard rubber or plastic? The last page of that catalog shows 6 pens with the same thin single cap band as the subject pen, and zooming in on Bill Acker's thumbnails it's readily apparent that 2 of the pens are plain, 2 have straight line chasing, and 2 have a curved chasing.

My question is, is that line around the barrel at the end of the chasing a groove or a joint? There's no line on the pneumatic filler shown above. Is there enough sac remnant in the subject pen to show a lengthwise groove/indentation from a pressure bar that you find in button fillers with hardened sacs? If not, then perhaps this pen is missing a pneumatic filler and blind cap...

Hi Matt,

My first reaction is to note that these certainly are not "DQ" as that line (and the associated barrel imprint) seems to have vanished with the end of the flat-top era, just as did "Lucky Curve" markings.

A bland "parker pen" imprint such as we see on many of the pens we tend to call "Thrift Pens" can be considered no different from a "bland" "Parker Lucky Curve" imprint before 1929. Most non-Duofold pre-streamlined pens had no model names marked on barrel. Most post 1931 Parker pens DO have model names marked on barrels. What we tend to call "Thrift" pens are those post 1928 pens that have no model name marked on barrel, but which in fact reflect Parker's pre-streamline-era approach to such pens.

Second issue: While collectors to some degree have taken to calling the black pens "Parker Raven", the model name of course is not "Raven" as was well pointed out by John Danza in a thread a year or so back. "Raven Black and Gold" might be viewed better as a description of appearance rather than of model, though I am overdue to look at the entire wording. The use of capital letters in title lines on catalogue pages tends to muddle things. As an aside note that had we not discovered catalogue pages for Parker's True Blue, we'd probably be calling that a Thrift Pen too (it meets all the criteria). Things seem to be "Thrift Pens' until we track down actual Parker info for them, reflecting the use of "Thrift Time" as a mask for our own lack of Parker info for the pens back when (and even today).

Third: You've probably hit a key piece of info that might make most of my above speculation... moot and indeed irrelevant. I have a 1932 original catalogue. Cannot find it. Just looked again, but the Great Unpacking has taken a toll on my library arrangement. Your reference to Bill's catalogue page indeed shows a chased single band streamlined pen. It would have to be plastic. That basically nullifies all my claims that Parker in the USA did not make a streamlined plastic chased pen.

Fourth: The "pneumatic filler" was a gross tangent and should be viewed as a major zebra in this case of guessing about hoofbeats (horses tend to be more common).

We've seen one or two (flat top style) pneumatic filling Parkers, and there has been heavy discussion as to whether they were Parker prototype vs aftermarket. We still have the differential diagnosis to consider, that some common button fillers had the surround sealed into the barrel rather than being one piece with the barrel. Loss of that hypothesized 2nd piece would account for the open end, but we do now need to examine pens to confirm the one-piece vs two-piece nature of the back end, AND we need to examine Brian's pen to see if it has size/conformation match to the 1932 pens. I hardly exclude the pneumatic thing, but the pen itself otherwise appears less exotic than I thought, especially now that we know that that chased plastic streamlined pens were catalogued by Parker-USA.

This of course leave me wondering why-- and I do examine Parker pens on all tables at all shows-- I've not seen USA made chased "Raven" type pens before. If i find the 1932 catalogue during the next few days I will post images.

Regards

David

[BrianMcQueen]

Matt,
The line around the end of the barrel is a groove, not a joint.
The sac is kind of twisted around, not quite what I have seen with indents left over from the pressure bar leaning against it for ages. I will try to resist the temptation to take it apart and bring it to the Raleigh pen show exactly the way it is now so keener eyes can take a look at it.

David,
I'm interested in seeing the catalog scans for this in higher resolution.

[david i]

As Brian did at start of this thread, Vance (at Zoss List) raised question of whether the original pen might have been meant to be a Combo. The improper top piece for such a thing is a swappable part. But, the barrel on Brian's pen seems too long, and of course even a Combo would have a button assembly at back of barrel, not the hole.

Here is shot of the Parker chased Combo with pencil removed, shown next to the shorter of the two sizes of non-Combo "Thrift"-ish pen from that era.

regards

David

[david i]

Should we avoid calling this a thrift or DQ, since it appears to be a "Black and Gold"? The "Raven Black and Gold" line is not streamlined in the 1929 catalog, is streamlined in the 1930 catalog, but both have double cap bands. Is the streamlined "Black and Gold" line in the 1932 catalog made of hard rubber or plastic? The last page of that catalog shows 6 pens with the same thin single cap band as the subject pen, and zooming in on Bill Acker's thumbnails it's readily apparent that 2 of the pens are plain, 2 have straight line chasing, and 2 have a curved chasing.

My question is, is that line around the barrel at the end of the chasing a groove or a joint? There's no line on the pneumatic filler shown above. Is there enough sac remnant in the subject pen to show a lengthwise groove/indentation from a pressure bar that you find in button fillers with hardened sacs? If not, then perhaps this pen is missing a pneumatic filler and blind cap...

Addendum to my prior note. A Zosser has noted that the PCA's 1929 catalogue does show streamlined pens. Key points about the pens we discuss do not depend on whether the streamlined "Raven" appeared 1929 or 1930, but at some point we probably should check to see Bill's catalogue copy and the PCA "1929" catalogue are the same catalogue and if they have dates printed on them.

-d

[matt]

Does the uninterupted chasing on David's combo argue against the subject pen, with a plain band at the end of the barrel, being a combo missing it's pencil and threaded end?

[david i]

Does the uninterupted chasing on David's combo argue against the subject pen, with a plain band at the end of the barrel, being a combo missing it's pencil and threaded end?

Hi Matt,

My chased Combo is Canadian (different rules?) but seems to have parts of same size to USA made Combos. Neither the pencil portion nor the pen portion has a smooth finish in the area where they join. Even if the pen I showed had a button assembly that was separate piece (originally) that had been sealed to barrel and now was lost, there would not be that smooth band present.

I fear I went a long way to muddling this thread (not that anyone had contrary correct info to offer until you posted that the 1932 USA catalogue shows a chased "Thrift" pen of this sort) when I divereted into the whole "there is no chased USA streamlined plastic Parker".

Stepping back from this, at third peek Brian's pen now seems far less anomalous, looking to be a 1932 "Parker Thrift"-ish pen at root, albeit one with an issue of some sort at the back of barrel.

Next step is to plonk the chased pen next to 1930-32 "Thrift/Raven" pens to see if really same size cap and barrel. Noting that I've never seen (and I've seen... a lot of pens) the chased USA "Thrift" pen in the flesh, I cannot comment as to whether the catalogued pen has a smooth area at the back end. Once i find my 1932 catalogue, at least there will be hope the catalogue image can answer that question.

Assuming Brian's pen matches size with our expectations for thrift pens, our core question now really just is "what happened at the back end". I would not be surprised if the thing just lost a button assembly. But, I am not yet certain.

regards

david

[matt]

snip Next step is to plonk the chased pen next to 1930-32 "Thrift/Raven" pens to see if really same size cap and barrel. Noting that I've never seen (and I've seen... a lot of pens) the chased USA "Thrift" pen in the flesh, I cannot comment as to whether the catalogued pen has a smooth area at the back end. Once i find my 1932 catalogue, at least there will be hope the catalogue image can answer that question.

Assuming Brian's pen matches size with our expectations for thrift pens, our core question now really just is "what happened at the back end". I would not be surprised if the thing just lost a button assembly. But, I am not yet certain.

regards

david

Nope, the catalog shows all 6 of the pens with the caps posted.

[david i]

Nope, the catalog shows all 6 of the pens with the caps posted.

Well, recollection is that chased Parkers tend to have a gap in the chasing at the back of the barrel. The pen we discuss of course is very late product so parhaps variation in simple gap from earlier pens (by 1932 with groove?) possible. Assuming no monkey business...

-d

[John Danza]

My chased Combo is Canadian (different rules?) but seems to have parts of same size to USA made Combos. Neither the pencil portion nor the pen portion has a smooth finish in the area where they join. Even if the pen I showed had a button assembly that was separate piece (originally) that had been sealed to barrel and now was lost, there would not be that smooth band present.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Assuming Brian's pen matches size with our expectations for thrift pens, our core question now really just is "what happened at the back end". I would not be surprised if the thing just lost a button assembly. But, I am not yet certain.

I've never seen a button filler from Parker with a removable button holder. If these had been made, the part would have shown up in a repair manual along with an explanation about how to repair a pen with such. I've looked at my early-to-mid 1930s Parker button fillers and they're all one piece barrels. This includes the Raven I have that seems to match this one, without the chasing, at least as far as the cap and ring configuration is concerned. Lastly, if the button holder were removable on this pen, we would see threads there, yet there is none present. Press fit would be highly unlikely.

[BrianMcQueen]

SNIP

Press fit would be highly unlikely.

I agree with you on this one, John. There doesn't even seem to be a way that a press fit piece could be held in there once in place. The hole in the end seems to me to be done as well as factory. Whether or not it IS from the factory that way is really still up to speculation at this point.

[david i]

I've never seen a button filler from Parker with a removable button holder. If these had been made, the part would have shown up in a repair manual along with an explanation about how to repair a pen with such. I've looked at my early-to-mid 1930s Parker button fillers and they're all one piece barrels. This includes the Raven I have that seems to match this one, without the chasing, at least as far as the cap and ring configuration is concerned. Lastly, if the button holder were removable on this pen, we would see threads there, yet there is none present. Press fit would be highly unlikely.

I'm in no position to insist otherwise. I merely speculate.

I think we have redirected a great bit recognizing the core model is same as-- or at least similar to-- catalogued product from the 1932 catalogue. If size turns out not to match, we can reassess that point.

As to the back end. Yeah, if an assembly were friction fit and hit either with shellac or true solvent weld, it would be at risk for stress, and solvent welds can look fairly one-piece, but still...

If something was reamed out or if there was a two piece set-up (the loss of which showing that long term production in that manner would not be a good idea), that could explain the back end. The non-button-filler notion (as with the Lucky Curve pneumatic fill pen above) I suppose remains in play.

Were those black-band Vacumatic filling units threaded?

I will look at my black pens from this era, but we remain without an answer so far...

-d