27 replies to this topic

[John Danza]

I believe the passage was in Side Talks -- I don't have an exact reference handy at the moment, I'm afraid.

No worries, I know how that goes.

I look through some of them from that era. Thanks much.

[david i]

To tie some of this together, and to drop a rare plea into the mix.

The all-transparent streamlined Duofold Junior meets the stringent criteria serious collectors of old pens use for Demonstrator. It is a variant not catalogued in available literature in manner that would indicate general distribution/sale. It is transparent and thus.. demonstrates. Other Demos are out there for which hard information is lacking, though there are some transparent Demos for which company information supports the Demonstrator designation, Waterman's Ink-Vue coming to mind.

Clearly (no pun intended), it is conceivable that any low-run, poorly documented, seeming limited distribution pen (transparent or otherwise) could have served some other purpose besides either Demonstrator or any other "best guess" we have today. At some level one can ask legitimately, "How do we know that any old pen that by collector convention today is considered a Demonstrator, was intended by the pen manufacturer to be a Demonstrator".

Pens that are marked Demonstrator are the easiest group. Most pens we believe to be Demonstrator (sometimes with info found to back the claim) are not so stamped.

One of my standard lines for any anomalous pen under discussions is, "... could have been small run, niche market, special order, lunchtime special, experimental, prototype..."., before diving into evidence or thoughts to further narrow the choices. For example, we apply such thought to the Parker Vacumatic in "egg-shell mosaid/ cobra-skin" pattern.

David (N) touches on such notions, saying, "...raises the possibility that at least some may have been made for some other purpose -- perhaps just for the sheer novelty, and for proto-collectors within the Parker establishment."

However,

Putting aside general issues such as, "What is a Demonstrator?", and "Were all pens that today meet our expectations/criteria for vintage Demonstrator, so intended by the manufacturers who produced them?", we have a couple specific bits of recollection in play, recollections that can impact analysis specifically of the transparent streamlined Duofold in the OP and more generally of a broader class of transparent 1920's Parkers (either all-clear or partially clear pens).

Per John Danza: However, it's not a Demonstrator. It's a standard Duofold made in clear celluloid. Parker made some of their models in celluloid by special order, IIRC. There's a mention of them in a couple of catalogs, mostly in the Jack Knife Safety series...SNIP... One additional point on the celluloids. It's interesting that the Jack Knife Safety pens made from celluloid have hard rubber cap... SNIP...It'll take some time to look for the reference I saw about clear celluloid manufacture, as it was several years ago.

Per David Nishimura: I am familiar with the references from the 'teens to the transparent Bakelite-barreled pens, which according to Parker literature were originally made as demonstrators but were promoted to regular production items after customers saw and liked them. From the evidence of the pens themselves, transparent celluloid began to be substituted for Bakelite sometime in the '20s -- but always just the barrel, with conventional BHR caps.... SNIP... I believe the passage was in Side Talks -- I don't have an exact reference handy at the moment, I'm afraid.

Believe me, I'm well aware that when collecting for years, most of us-- what with lacking eidetic memory-- see things, forget things, blur recollection. More often than I like I find myself using "if i recall correctly", "I've seen it I believe in the X catalogue, but will have to double check" and so forth. Too often of late, I've not had the time to... double check

My sense of what this pen is about has largely been confirmed by the discussion above. This thread probably has been the most thorough discussion online or in print about the transparent streamlined Duofold, noting Duofold is one of the most collected pens in our hobby.

Given that everything asserted and given that the invoked historical context (transparent JKS, etc) appear to depend on Parker literature that one or another of us... might have seen... I ask that when you can you hunt the paper cited and post images (or transcript) of key snippets. Otherwise there is a real element of wheel spinning beyond just, "Desirable, rare Duofold in great shape. Might be a true Demo. Might be special order, etc". That of course is a fine ending if there is no other info out there. But it would be a shame not to clarify issues by digging up pertinent references.

Thanks

David

[John Danza]

Given that everything asserted and given that the invoked historical context (transparent JKS, etc) appear to depend on Parker literature that one or another of us... might have seen... I ask that when you can you hunt the paper cited and post images (or transcript) of key snippets. Otherwise there is a real element of wheel spinning beyond just, "Desirable, rare Duofold in great shape. Might be a true Demo. Might be special order, etc". That of course is a fine ending if there is no other info out there. But it would be a shame not to clarify issues by digging up pertinent references.

Fair enough request David. I think you can see how recollections or stored knowledge can be part of any thread discussion without the instant ability to "prove it". Some of these "conversations" go by pretty quickly and by the time you've had time to find your evidence, there's been another six responses.

In any event, below is the page from the 1918 Parker dealer catalog I was referring to where Parker suggests the Bakelite pens can be used by the dealers as demonstrators. See the highlighted line.

[david i]

SNIP

Fair enough request David. I think you can see how recollections or stored knowledge can be part of any thread discussion without the instant ability to "prove it". Some of these "conversations" go by pretty quickly and by the time you've had time to find your evidence, there's been another six responses.

In any event, below is the page from the 1918 Parker dealer catalog I was referring to where Parker suggests the Bakelite pens can be used by the dealers as demonstrators. See the highlighted line.

Hi John,

This reference is both good and bad. At least it lets me give you some grief, always a bonus.

Yes, per my last note, I very well know and accept that recollections without material in hand can confuse a discussion

But, your information is what I suspected you were recalling. I have that catalogue copy (also not reviewed by me during discussion in this thread).

I don't believe that page has significant bearing on the streamlined Duofold "Demonstrator" we discuss.

The Bake-lite barrel pens were routine product (albeit not commonly found today), well documented, with a different feature set (at least a different "character") from the pen under discussion, offered starting 12 years or so before the pen we discuss, "pen generation" apart so to speak. That the barrel allows demonstration was treated as an incidental benefit, not carrying any goal of dealer-only specialness, in 1918.

While I agree we don't have proof of intent regarding Demonstrator status for the streamlined Duofold shown-- though also we don't have such proof of intent for most pens of its ilk that most collectors reasonably call Demonstrator-- the 1918 catalogue page for Bake-lite does not-- in my view-- constitute confounding data to the Demonstrator status.

The broader question (perhaps applicable too to my clear Nozac, clear Mabie Todd Leverless, clear Sheaffer Balance, etc) of whether there might have been a non-Dealer-Demonstrator reason to produce this pen, remains in play... i suppose... as proof of anything might be difficult to obtain.

I am charmed by the idea, I admit, of Special Order, Novelty Item, Parker Family Collection... and so forth... as alternate explanations. Tying the pen to some of the other general-era all-transparent pens (Lucky Curve, flat-top Duofold) might lend insight.

regards

david

[John Danza]

[I don't believe that page has significant bearing on the streamlined Duofold "Demonstrator" we discuss.

Actually, I didn't say it did have anything to do with the Duofold. In your post above where you asked for references, you cited David N's comment where he was stating where he saw that Bakelite barrels were originally demonstrators and then put into production while I had said that Parker had taken a production item and only suggested that dealers use them as demonstrators. While it's off-topic of the Duofold, I read your request that you wanted reference on those comments as well, so I provided it. But it sounds like that's not what you meant, so we'll move away from the Bakelite comments.

[david i]

Actually, I didn't say it did have anything to do with the Duofold. In your post above where you asked for references, you cited David N's comment where he was stating where he saw that Bakelite barrels were originally demonstrators and then put into production while I had said that Parker had taken a production item and only suggested that dealers use them as demonstrators. While it's off-topic of the Duofold, I read your request that you wanted reference on those comments as well, so I provided it. But it sounds like that's not what you meant, so we'll move away from the Bakelite comments.

Hi John,

My apologies then for misinterpretation or possible misinterpretation

I'd not thought you were addressing David (N)'s recollection but thought you were citing references for the recollection you'd cited earlier.

Per John Danza: David, this is a great pen and as you know, extremely rare. However, it's not a Demonstrator. It's a standard Duofold made in clear celluloid. Parker made some of their models in celluloid by special order, IIRC. There's a mention of them in a couple of catalogs, mostly in the Jack Knife Safety series

So.... we take a step back. We agree then the quote from the 1918 catalogue does not support the notion that the transparent streamlined Duofold is not a Demonstrator.

OK.

Meanwhile, if there are actual references to transparent special order celluloid pens (Duofold or related)... please hunt. I'm still not certain your recollection on this matter is accurate.

I hope David Nishimura can find his alternate source that Bakelite pens might have had Demonstrator intent before release as regular model, though your catalogue page does show that such pens were suggested for use for demonstration purposes.

Per David Nishimura: I am familiar with the references from the 'teens to the transparent Bakelite-barreled pens, which according to Parker literature were originally made as demonstrators but were promoted to regular production items after customers saw and liked them. From the evidence of the pens themselves, transparent celluloid began to be substituted for Bakelite sometime in the '20s -- but always just the barrel, with conventional BHR caps.... SNIP... I believe the passage was in Side Talks -- I don't have an exact reference handy at the moment, I'm afraid.

regards

David

[John Danza]

While I continue to peruse the Parker stuff in the PCA library, I finally decided to pull out the Duofold book. There are two pages addressing Demonstrators in both Bakelite and Celluloid.

Bakelite

The book states the same thing that David N did, which is that the Bakelite barrels were made as salesman demonstrators first, then were supplied to dealers as demonstrators, and then finally added to the standard product line. There is an image of what looks like a Parker magazine ad for the "Transparent Bakelite Pen" and it states the very same thing. So there we appear to have a Parker document that supports what the authors state in the book.

Celluloid

The Duofold book shows a couple of celluloid Duofolds, none exactly like David's. There is a streamlined amber celluloid with a black plastic standard looking cap. The blind cap is amber celluloid as well, but the section is black hard rubber. The feed isn't shown. Then there is a yellow celluloid flattop barrel with a black blind cap, section and feed. Add to this a yellow celluloid barrel with an experimental early version of the Vacumatic filler, but with an orange plastic standard cap with black washer clip screw. Lastly, there's a yellow celluloid flattop barrel with a standard black flat top cap and blind cap. The barrel on this pen has been cut in a couple of areas to demonstrate the pen internals.

While not stated specifically, the authors leave little to the imagination that the celluloid was intended to be salesman's demonstrators. The authors provide no Parker documentation to support this however.

In conclusion, I'm accepting of David N.'s comments on the Bakelite. I'm also accepting of David I.'s contention that his celluloid pen was intended to be a demonstrator.

Whew!!

[david i]

The Duofold book shows a couple of celluloid Duofolds, none exactly like David's. There is a streamlined amber celluloid with a black plastic standard looking cap. The blind cap is amber celluloid as well, but the section is black hard rubber. The feed isn't shown. Then there is a yellow celluloid flattop barrel with a black blind cap, section and feed. Add to this a yellow celluloid barrel with an experimental early version of the Vacumatic filler, but with an orange plastic standard cap with black washer clip screw. Lastly, there's a yellow celluloid flattop barrel with a standard black flat top cap and blind cap. The barrel on this pen has been cut in a couple of areas to demonstrate the pen internals.

So... my wee Duofold has a better Demonstrator feature set than any related pen in that book? Now that is charming

-d