38 replies to this topic

[david i]

I had difficulty deciding whether to post this note in the Sheaffer forum as a fresh thread, in the already huge "Sheaffer Metal Pen" pinned thread within the Sheaffer Forum or... here. I opted on the "Elements of Collecting" forum, as the set's Sheafferness is incidental to the topic, which has more to do with the general collecting of old pens.

Some collectables fields overwhelmingly favor preservation of original patina and finish. Antique furniture loses value if original finish is replaced. I've heard the same is true for Stradivarius violins as well. In Numismatics, original toning (a bit of a euphemism for generally appealing tarnish) adds value to silver and to gold coins.

The issue is less significant in pen collecting. Most pens of gold-tone metal or with similar overlay tend to be pretty bright by the time we find them, and if there is spotty dark tarnish, few object to cleaning the metal. Silver pens often turn up with simple gray/black oxidation, and many favor leaving that alone or giving at most a light wipe-down to lighten the effect. Yes, many people (also true for newbie Numismatists) like "shiny white", but frankly, finding a 1915 Waterman overlay with glow-in-the-dark bright trim can be-- to borrow a term recently used by a writer here at FPB-- jarring. Still, that polished Waterman overlay really does not lose value for having had its nice dark tone polished away, unlike the disaster if one applies polish to the original finish of an old coin.

Metal fountain pens with attractive iridescent toning are uncommon finds.

Couple years ago I picked up a ring-top metal 1920's Sheaffer set. Pattern in the gold-filled metal is a bit less common than some I see, but not at the lofty level of the slotted, basket weave, filigree, etc patterns.

Near mint or mint condition, it probably rested against something that toned it, paper or material containing sulfur perhaps. I've seen but a handful of old pens with this level of color. Stunning pen. It would be a crime against pendom to polish this set. The photo does not quite capture the eye appeal.

So, I present a tarnished pen set and invite thoughts regarding the merits of shining it up. Also, do share images of your own patinated pens.

regards

David

[snorkelcc]

Very uncommon pattern !

The tannish looks like this pen set is vermeil...

CC

[david i]

Very uncommon pattern !

The tannish looks like this pen set is vermeil...

CC

Hi Snork,

Suspect typical gold-filled, if only because I don't recall citations of vermeil being used in typical Sheaffer metal pens. I could be wrong. In fact, I'm not certain that bright vermeil looks different from bright gold-filled. Have recollection the alloy for the gold covering the base metal (that being silver in Vermeil) is what determines the color. Again, take with grain of salt. As I say to my friend Jim, "Dammit JIm, I'm a doctor not a metallurgist".

With this Sheaffer set, the rich gold/tan color that seems to be the base for the blue/magenta highlights itself is part of the toning, which I find part of the charm. If we were to polish this pen, it would revert to typical bright pink/yellow seen with gold-filled pens.

regards

David

[RichKen]

OK - this is a first post. The image is in the gallery.

Is this tarnish or patina? Certainly not beautiful as David's post.

RK

Edited by RichKen, 08 January 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[david i]

OK - this is a first post. The image is in the gallery.
Is this tarnish or patina? Certainly not beautiful as David's post.

RK

Hi RK,

Looks like you used GALLERY well.

Not sure there is a hard difference in definition. There is element of euphemism to use of some terms; "toning" and "patina" tend to convey positive spin, "tarnish" a negative, but for metal the chemistry I believe remains the same throughout.

Recollection from long ago in my coin collecting days is that the whole toning/tarnish thing is oxidation, with the iridescent phase representing thin film interference, occurring when the finish on the substrate metal favors the phenomenon, typically with original undisturbed metal. . Simple graying/blackening occurs with "used" surfaces. Chemists are invited to correct me.

But, even beyond exotic pen situations, where really striking colorful oxidation is present, even the humble graying/blackening of non-mint silver is not necessarily a bad thing, not unaesthetic to collectors who appreciate a vintage look on a vintage item.

Parker 75 is late enough, that I'm more neutral about the "polish vs not" debate, recognizing such things have personal element. Your pen looks nice as is.

I'll show a few more substantially older pens that have typical gray finish that develops on already used/rubbed/polished silver. All these are nice pre 1920 sterling overlays. I could make them glow like a brand new pen. Would they really look better?

Left to Right.: Waterman 412 1/2VS Baby Safety filigree , Waterman 454 "Night and Day", Waterman 412 filigree. The little safety pen at left has hint of blue iridescence besides the typical gray.

regards

David

[david i]

This Waterman 452 1/2 is near mint (maybe mint) and arrived iirc in a period Waterman blue velvet box, though I must find the box. Sterling overlay in Gothic pattern.

The pen has oxidation, a pale steel-blue toning with red/orange highlights. And, there is a reflective element to the finish, probably because the pen toned on a pristine surface with no real rub to the metal. At least that would be the guess. This one has an understated patina compared to the gold-filled pen in the original post. The photo does not do a great job capturing the color.

regards

David

[david i]

OK - this is a first post. The image is in the gallery.

Is this tarnish or patina? Certainly not beautiful as David's post.

RK

Also would caution to use a polishing cloth (gently) not paste polish on a sterling 75, or one risks erasing the recessed black lines.

Jon Messer over at Zoss list mentioned one should not polish the scarce gold-tone cisele Parker 75, as the coating is a very fragile thing. Apparently, it is easy to turn the thin vermeil back into boring sterling silver.

regards

david

[matt]

Very uncommon pattern !

The tannish looks like this pen set is vermeil...

CC

Here's vermeil, gold fill over silver. I polished the pen (need to do more) because there must be silver in the alloy as it was the blue-black of old silver. When I get the silver removed from the surface of the gold, I'll retone the silver background.


It's the copper, etc., in the gold alloy that creates the toning. Gold doesn't oxidize, or react with sulfur like silver.

[david i]

Here's vermeil, gold fill over silver. I polished the pen (need to do more) because there must be silver in the alloy as it was the blue-black of old silver. When I get the silver removed from the surface of the gold, I'll retone the silver background.


It's the copper, etc., in the gold alloy that creates the toning. Gold doesn't oxidize, or react with sulfur like silver.

Hi Matt,

You sure that's silver on gold not gold on silver? Won't you have to retone the gold not the silver? How much polishing are you planning that you expect to remove a layer of metal?

regards

david

[snorkelcc]

Here's vermeil, gold fill over silver. I polished the pen (need to do more) because there must be silver in the alloy as it was the blue-black of old silver. When I get the silver removed from the surface of the gold, I'll retone the silver background.


It's the copper, etc., in the gold alloy that creates the toning. Gold doesn't oxidize, or react with sulfur like silver.

Hi Matt,

You sure that's silver on gold not gold on silver? Won't you have to retone the gold not the silver? How much polishing are you planning that you expect to remove a layer of metal?

regards

david

I always think Vermeil means gold on solid sliver (may be wrong)...

The reason why I suspected the ring top is vermeil was mainly because the tone of tannish is very similar to those tannish (or blue/magenta highlights) vermeil pens I have encountered...Although I seldomly polish my pen I did to those I was selling, after slightly polishing, the original gold color return.

CC

[David Nishimura]

With vermeil (gold over silver) you do get a different kind of tarnish, since there is some migration of silver to the surface. When dealing with this sort of tarnish with a two-toned vermeil object such as the Wahl-Eversharp set under discussion, I would spot-polish the darkened areas on the gold, leaving the exposed silver alone. Minimizing polishing is the best policy, especially where the soft, exposed silver is so delicately and shallowly engine-turned.

[matt]

[Hi Matt,

You sure that's silver on gold not gold on silver? Won't you have to retone the gold not the silver? How much polishing are you planning that you expect to remove a layer of metal?

regards

david

That's what I've got on the pen - silver splotches on the gold fill over the sterling base. It's as if silver "migrates" to the surface, as David N noted (anyone know a metalurgist who can explain this?), or "vermeiling" requires a certain amount of siver in the gold alloy layer, or the rolling/bonding of the two layers ends up transferrng some of the base layer, silver in this case, to the top layer. The pen had blue-black blotches (silver sulfide) that were resistant to polishing off. So I "dipped" the cap and barrel in hot water and baking soda, which reduces the silver sulfide to Ag and produces a bit of H₂S gas. Now I need to polish off the splotches of silver.

[david i]

That's what I've got on the pen - silver splotches on the gold fill over the sterling base. It's as if silver "migrates" to the surface, as David N noted (anyone know a metalurgist who can explain this?), or "vermeiling" requires a certain amount of siver in the gold alloy layer, or the rolling/bonding of the two layers ends up transferrng some of the base layer, silver in this case, to the top layer. The pen had blue-black blotches (silver sulfide) that were resistant to polishing off. So I "dipped" the cap and barrel in hot water and baking soda, which reduces the silver sulfide to Ag and produces a bit of H₂S gas. Now I need to polish off the splotches of silver.

Hi Matt,

I might be missing something here, but I admit surprise there would be silver splotches on the gold layer. Migration through or prior loss of gold might account, but I suspect further polishing will not reveal gold under the silver. Probably will just expose more silver.

regards

d

[matt]

Hi Matt,

I might be missing something here, but I admit surprise there would be silver splotches on the gold layer. Migration through or prior loss of gold might account, but I suspect further polishing will not reveal gold under the silver. Probably will just expose more silver.

regards

d

David,

The blue-black tarnish appears on war time/post war Sheaffer clips that are vermeil and sometimes on same era Vac and 51 clips. You can polish it off to reveal the gold, but if you use the baking soda dip, you get a layer of silver to polish off.

On the other hand, the toning on your GF set at the beginning of this thread is probably produced by the copper in the gold alloy.

Matt

Edited by matt, 09 January 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[david i]

David,

The blue-black tarnish appears on war time/post war Sheaffer clips that are vermeil and sometimes on same era Vac and 51 clips. You can polish it off to reveal the gold, but if you use the baking soda dip, you get a layer of silver to polish off.

Matt

Hi Matt,

You will I hope continue to lead me through this one...

I can buy that in theory silver migrates through a gold layer to reveal silver at the surface, but I am a bit surprised that removing this would reveal original gold layer, vs reflecting a mixed layer due to migration being removed to reveal pure silver.

But even if so, why did you write,

When I get the silver removed from the surface of the gold, I'll retone the silver background.

This would indicate to me you have lost silver that needs to be replaced in a silver area. Everything else I see suggests you in fact are losing some gold that needs retoning, as the silver is the underlying layer in the vermeil and is the full-thickness metal in the areas that were supposed to be silver.


Did you make typo? If not... please clarify


david

[david i]

Time to drop a the proverbial patinated bomb into the water. I don't show this pen often. Its signficance generally is discussed in contexts which far transcend the merits of patina.

For those unfamiliar, the Waterman 420 is-- if not the king-- cartainly amongst the nobles of collectable pendom, recognizing that any discussion of "best" must factor rarity, glitz, significance in the day, into notions of value and cachet... not to mention the subjective element of personal aesthetic sense. One of the giant pens (literally) in the color of greatest cachet, with overlay, by one of the most revered makers, there are but a handful known. A rather gross thing, it generates cachet without the subtlety and sleek elegance of some of the fancy eyedroppers with which it competes. It is... a monster.

The Wahl box on which it rests barely contains 5" Wahl sets, and this pen dwarfs the case. Overwhelmingly the most valuable pen in my collection, if I had to give up all but one pen, it nonetheless would lose to a special Parker Vacumatic that found me last year. Andy Lambrou's FPOTW cited "one known", though a few more have come to light since then.

I tend not to toss images of it casually.

Still, it is a silver overlay on red hard rubber. Would it make sense to polish it up to glow, like this modern Waterman-eque Yard-O-Lead?

Modern Sterling Yard-O-Lead, evoking old Waterman pens. Very nice pen with

shiny modern sterling.

Here is my Waterman 420: It had light graying when I found it. Years in the pen tray have given the silver a rich black tone. Would shiny silver really enhance this?

Regards

David

[jonro]

You may consider me a contrarian, but I feel that patina is highly overrated. I want to see a pen in its full glory, the way it first looked when it rolled off the production line and carefully placed in its box. I think that the importance of showing genuine aging depends upon the item. For some reason, a long time ago, numismatists decided that the grunge of the ages was a desirable thing. When it comes to paintings, grime and oxidation of colors is very undesirable. Museums spend a considerable amount of money to try to restore artwork to its original condition.

Does tarnish actually protect the metal underneath. I would say to your friend, Jim, "Jim, I'm a simple country programmer, not a metallurgist." I don't know if certain types of tarnish cause pitting and destruction to the metal below. In the case of silver, it would appear to protect it against further oxidation, but I'm not certain about how much silver metal is actually removed from the overlay.

At any rate, that's a magnificent pen, and I would love to see it in its full splendor, which probably is not as shiny as the Yard-O-Led above it. The Yard-O-Led may be rhodium plated. As mentioned earlier, a coat of Renaissance Wax might act as a long time prophylactic against tarnishing. For me, part of the charm of collecting is to see pens restored to their original condition both functionally and cosmetically. To quote Pink Floyd, "Shine on, you crazy diamond."

[matt]

David,

The blue-black tarnish appears on war time/post war Sheaffer clips that are vermeil and sometimes on same era Vac and 51 clips. You can polish it off to reveal the gold, but if you use the baking soda dip, you get a layer of silver to polish off.

Matt

Hi Matt,

You will I hope continue to lead me through this one...

I can buy that in theory silver migrates through a gold layer to reveal silver at the surface, but I am a bit surprised that removing this would reveal original gold layer, vs reflecting a mixed layer due to migration being removed to reveal pure silver.

But even if so, why did you write,

When I get the silver removed from the surface of the gold, I'll retone the silver background.

This would indicate to me you have lost silver that needs to be replaced in a silver area. Everything else I see suggests you in fact are losing some gold that needs retoning, as the silver is the underlying layer in the vermeil and is the full-thickness metal in the areas that were supposed to be silver.


Did you make typo? If not... please clarify


david

The silver I am talking about removing - however it got there - is on the surface of the gold layer, in order to reveal just the gold layer. The "background" I want to retone is the engraved panel where the gold was removed to reveal the underlying silver. On this pattern, Waterford?, the little triangles that zig-zag down the panel still have the gold layer, so the final effect should be quite nice.

[Admin]

The silver I am talking about removing - however it got there - is on the surface of the gold layer, in order to reveal just the gold layer. The "background" I want to retone is the engraved panel where the gold was removed to reveal the underlying silver. On this pattern, Waterford?, the little triangles that zig-zag down the panel still have the gold layer, so the final effect should be quite nice.

The ambiguity might be clearing.

When you wrote, "retone the silver background", you meant "reapply gold tone to the silver background", not "replace missing silver tone"?

regards


d

[matt]

The ambiguity might be clearing.

When you wrote, "retone the silver background", you meant "reapply gold tone to the silver background", not "replace missing silver tone"?

regards

d

Lightly tone the silver panels - with liver of sulfur if you are in a hurry or just exposed to the air if you are patient - to re-establish an antique look, not unlike a Parker 75.