25 replies to this topic

[david i]

I was wandering the aisles of the Philadelphia Pen Show (January 2012) when a nice fellow I know called me to his table to look at some pens. I saw a couple quite decent Parker Vacumatics, but nothing I needed at the moment (I have a fair bunch of Vacs). I started to stroll away when he offered to show me a Parker Duofold that was resting in his pocket. A nice wee Moderne Black and Pearl pen in ladies' size-- the Juniorette or Slender Junior-- it had barrel discoloration, intact filling button, and need for restoration... and in this case a price tag about 5x what I'd expect for an unrestored pen in this model/color/condtion. I was in process of declining the pen when something caught my eye.

The end-pieces were not Duofold end-pieces. Rather, they had the notched look suggestive of early Parker Challenger (1934-1937 style).

Could this be a Parker Challenger done in Duofold plastic?

I was intrigued.

We chatted a bit more, and I bought the pen after explaining what was interesting about it.

I'll offer a first peek, with more photos to follow.

What-- if anything-- catches your eye?

Should we do the slow reveal, while observations percolate?

Shall I just announce the pen-- assuming I have proper handle on the quirks?

A mutated Duofold? Wearever knockoff? A weird product of the Great Depression?

Davey screwing up on a frankenpen?



Thoughts?

regards

David

[Teej47]

I'll throw out there the full depth of my Parker knowledge:

Three cap bands does not equal Junior.

I notice the clip is turned so as not to show the imprint. It does it say Parker, doesn't it?

Canadian?

Tim

[david i]

I'll throw out there the full depth of my Parker knowledge:

Three cap bands does not equal Junior.

I notice the clip is turned so as not to show the imprint. It does it say Parker, doesn't it?

Canadian?

Tim

Hi Tim,

Good questions, though i will note that Duofold (vs Vacumatic) Juniorette (slender/ladies' pens) does appear with triple cap-ands.

regards

david

[AlanSteytler]

Looks a whole lot like this guy, sitting on my desk...

[david i]

Looks a whole lot like this guy, sitting on my desk...

Hi Alan.

Yep. There is a family resemblance. Indeed, it was offered to me at first as a Duofold.

Still... different endpieces... thinner cap-bands, bands that resemble Deluxe Challenger's rather than Duofold's cap-bands...


regards

David

[matt]

A Juniorette is a Lady Duofold with clip instead of ringtop, correct? (And a Special is a Junior w/ Senior length?)

So you could be hiding a Diamond Medal clip or - without knowing if the parts are interchangeable -you may have paid 5X for a Juniorette with Challenger endpieces.

I'm voting against Duofold plastic on a Challenger because that washer clip has a raised area down the middle which would be visible in your photo.

The resolution isn't quite high enough to see a diamond-shape outline on the clip, but the blurry edges of the lettering suggest two sides of a diamond shape more than a straight line down the left side of "PARKER", so I'm betting on Diamond Medal.

[david i]

Hi Matt,

I'll address a couple interesting points raised in the last few posts, points pertinent to general Parker collecting rather than to the funky pen here, per se.

A Juniorette is a Lady Duofold with clip instead of ringtop, correct? (And a Special is a Junior w/ Senior length?)

Could be. Vacumatic saw the Slender Junior name evolve into Juniorette around 1938. Key features of the pens did not really change (save for year-specific colors) . Not having looked at Duofold catalogues in detail of late, I've tended to treat the names, Lady Duofold and Juniorette interchangeably, figuring the Juniorette name was used later in the 1921-1934 catalogue run. If in fact Juniorette is a ringtop version of the same slender shortish pen that would be Lady Duofold when with clip, then the names indeed should be applied appropriately. Of course, that leaves us without a generic name for the slender "ladies'" Duofolds

Are you sure the names are applied differently based purely on attachment mechanism?

SNIP

Three cap bands does not equal Junior.

SNIP

Tim

Tim did touch on a key difference in the taxonomy of Duofold vs Vacumatic.

Vacumatic had a dedicated Economy Line. Early on that included Junior and Slender Junior/Juniorette. Sometimes we discuss "Junior line" Vacumatics, using the term synonymously with "economy line", though because the Junior also is an actual model in that line, I do prefer "economy line" so as not to confuse a category with an individual model. Later economy line pens included both Junior and Sub-Deb. An economy line Vac referenced specific features, guarantee and price point, not size per se. Junior was larger than Debutante and Slender, both of which were high line pens that cost more.

For Duofold, Junior and Juniorette reference model/sizes within the Duofold line, not prestige/warranty differences.. not category differences. Can give headache.

regards

David

[David Nishimura]

Diamond Medal Duofold, but presumably with Parker imprints on clip, barrel, and nib?

Caution here, though, since one could take a DM Duofold and substitute the Parker-marked parts easily enough.

[david i]

Diamond Medal Duofold, but presumably with Parker imprints on clip, barrel, and nib?

Caution here, though, since one could take a DM Duofold and substitute the Parker-marked parts easily enough.

David and Matt have hit on salient points and/or concerns regarding pens of this sort. Matt must have pretty good eyes. I didn't plan to leave as many clues as he found, and while David's concerns in general are well worth noting, this pen is more of a straight take on the DIamond Medal theme.

I will offer now a more comprehensive image set for the pen under discussion, followed by a link to a prior thread on some other non Vac-Fil models found with the Diamond Medal label, made by Parker, pens which I'd argue fall under the radar relative to their Vac-Fil sibs... although... come to think of it... the Vac-FIl pens themselves remain on relatively few collector scopes.

Also will post an image offered by Mr. Appleseed (i have original Sears page around here somewhere), which touches on this pen.

A bit later, I'll offer couple more points about this pen, and posit and at least imagined connection to some of the more commonly seen Parker "Thrift" pens.

1. The Pen. A Diamond Medal sac/button-fil pen in documented white-and-black color, the first of this particular model I've seen or handled in this color.

2. LInk to a prior thread about DIamond Medal and Webster button-fill pens made by Parker for Sears.

Link to other sac/button Sears pens made by Parker

3. Image posted in that prior thread, showing two styles of Parker-made Diamond Medal sac/button pens. One has round cross section, similar in look to Parker Challenger, and noting " black and white" as a color. The other shows a fluted cross section, deriving style elements from both Parkette Deluxe and from the $3.50 "Thrift" pen shown in the Dec 1933 Parkergrams

Putting aside the "eye candy" and "just having some fun" elements, I will later post a bit more info-- at least as I see that info-- and a question/hypothesis linking Parker "Thrift" pens from this era-- excluding the de-re-badged vac-fill pens-- to pens of the DIamond Medal variety, noting that we have played with such notions before.

regards

David

[david i]

SNIP
So you could be hiding a Diamond Medal clip or - without knowing if the parts are interchangeable -you may have paid 5X for a Juniorette with Challenger endpieces.

I'm voting against Duofold plastic on a Challenger because that washer clip has a raised area down the middle which would be visible in your photo.

The resolution isn't quite high enough to see a diamond-shape outline on the clip, but the blurry edges of the lettering suggest two sides of a diamond shape more than a straight line down the left side of "PARKER", so I'm betting on Diamond Medal.

Hi Matt,

Note that we worked out a reasonable price for the pen, well less than 5x the value of a plain Duofold in this shape, but still fair for what it is, factoring in size, color, condition. Everyone should be happy.

Note, too, that the sac Diamond Medals (some or all, have to check) do not have the diamond outline seen on the Diamond Medal Vac-Fil clips.


regards

david

[John Jenkins]

A nifty piece of the Parker history.

I've seen these type of ads before. You'd think with Sears peddling them, more would be around to find (maybe I'm not looking hard enough). Judging by the relative scarceness, I guess these were a short run by Sears? The multiple models offered by Sears would probably also work to keep individual numbers down. Lots of speculation.

JJ

[david i]

I put most of my sac/button-fill DM's in this shot, and on viewing the image realized there might be two key variants in play. The green pen at right in "plaque-on-black" celluloid is-- I believe-- a slightly different iteration of the pen, possibly a bit later than the three at left which include the first I've found of the Black-and-Pearl.

Consider the following image...

Tying the pens to known Parkers might work.

The three pens at left are done in Duofold plastic, the first two in Burgundy (black/burg mottled) and the third of course is Moderne Black and Pearl. All three have monotone nib with no date code. All three have Duofold-style clip lacking diamond shaped frame around the imprint. The larger Burgundy is identical in size to two others I've seen in standard girth. It is shorter in barrel than similar standard girth Parker Vac, Diamond Medal Vac Fil, Parker Challenger, and other Diamond Medal standard-girth models.

While I need to review all my ads from this era, the three pens on left scream "Early!" The short standard pens seemed odd, until I realized they match a pen that was found in standard girth, shorter than 5" in length... Duofold Junior. These rebadged pens might have been a final use of Duofold stock. Colors are correct. Length correct.

The green pen at right is more consistent with post-Duofold Parker. The standard girth pen matches length for most pens (Parker and DM) of that era. The pen has a two tone nib with date code . The plastic-- "Plaque on Black"-- is that of Parker Deluxe Challenger (1934-1940) and matches that used on the up-scale rebadged Parker, the Diamond Medal Vac-Fil. The clip does have diamond design around the imprint.

I believe I have a burgundy pen of the 2nd type, but need to find it. Wonder if it has the plaque-on-black plastic or the mottled earlier Duofold plastic.

More later.

regards

David

[John Danza]

I love the grouping David. It's interesting to see the use of Duofold plastics in the DM models. I guess it's consistent given the use of web plastics in the DM vacs a few years later.

[ianpwilliamson]

Just to add to the mystery any thoughts on this one? Its not from the USA and its not from Newhaven as far as I know.

Ian

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[david i]

Just to add to the mystery any thoughts on this one? Its not from the USA and its not from Newhaven as far as I know.

Ian

Hi Ian,

I cannot ID the pen based on what is shown. It certainly looks like a Duofold, save for clip. If you are asking for help, I fear I cannot give any. If this is a quiz, do eventually let us know brand if no one volunteers it.

Hey, do explore our GALLERY Tab at top of Board. Unfortunately if you upload images to individual posts, the total storage is capped at 500 kb. Shortly you'll have to delete images to load more. Gallery offers each member a personal Album that can hold 25MB storage. Images can be posted in any thread simply by cloning the BBC code (1 line of text) from the share-image feature when viewing image.

regards

David

[ianpwilliamson]

Just to add to the mystery any thoughts on this one? Its not from the USA and its not from Newhaven as far as I know.

Ian

Hi Ian,

I cannot ID the pen based on what is shown. It certainly looks like a Duofold, save for clip. If you are asking for help, I fear I cannot give any. If this is a quiz, do eventually let us know brand if no one volunteers it.

Hey, do explore our GALLERY Tab at top of Board. Unfortunately if you upload images to individual posts, the total storage is capped at 500 kb. Shortly you'll have to delete images to load more. Gallery offers each member a personal Album that can hold 25MB storage. Images can be posted in any thread simply by cloning the BBC code (1 line of text) from the share-image feature when viewing image.

regards

David

Hi David,

The pen is a 'Rosemary - (that's for rembrance) this was a brand of British Carbon Papers of London. BCP did not manufacture pens and contracted out to many British manufacturers such as Wyvern, Mentmore, Curzon and possibly Conway Stewart and Valentine (so in contradiction to the comment I made in my previous post it may well have come from Newhaven! It is sometimes attributed to National Security Pen Company but National Security is another brand name of BCP. The Rosemary brand came into being in the 1920s and Rosemary pens are now quite scarce and much sought after by collectors. I have several in ripple hard rubber which look very much like Conway Stewart manufacture but the one in my previous post I now believe to be made by Valentine when the had their factory next to the Parker plant.

Ian

[David Nishimura]

made by Valentine when the had their factory next to the Parker plant.

From what I understand, Valentine first did work for Parker, then was absorbed by them. Valentine's Newhaven plant became the Parker plant. They did not exist side-by-side and independently.

[David Nishimura]

While I applaud your perspicacity in seeking out these interesting pens, David, I can't but tweak you for being a bit late to the party:















I don't think all of these are all that late, despite the conservative design of the rebadged Duofolds. One bit of evidence is the pressure bars, which are almost always the later three-part version. And though I have to look more closely, most of the original instruction sheets I have for button-filling Diamond Medal Parkers are dated to 1937 and thereabouts.

[david i]

While I applaud your perspicacity in seeking out these interesting pens, David, I can't but tweak you for being a bit late to the party:

Uh Oh... it's a pretty rare day when Nishimura rolls up his sleeves to go man-vs-man for a rough game of "whose collection is bigger..."

I'm honored... I think.

Of course, that I'm later to the hobby than are some collectors, makes "late to the party" rather inevitable. So it goes.

Thanks for the serious eye candy, no joke.

A couple of my boxed sets are still packed from the move, so not sure I can find everything, but perhaps tonight I'll toss my rebadged Parker-as-DM pens and de-rebadged Parker-as-DM-released-as-Parkers into a tray and see what I can come up with.

More, below...

I don't think all of these are all that late, despite the conservative design of the rebadged Duofolds. One bit of evidence is the pressure bars, which are almost always the later three-part version. And though I have to look more closely, most of the original instruction sheets I have for button-filling Diamond Medal Parkers are dated to 1937 and thereabouts.

What I can bring to the party-- and it is something perhaps not well addressed even in the book that featured some of your pens (or so I'm told), is to date the styles.. more or less.

What I have lying around (still in tattered moldy 500pg catalogues) are several period ads covering the DM Vac-FIl, the sac pens (which I suspect were called Sac-Fil in one ad, unless I just imagined that), and several of the Webster and Good Service pens. While appearance in one ad does not preclude later or earlier appearance, we can get handle on some of these

As you know, we've had couple threads-- lengthy threads-- that show the derivation of the DM pens from some of the Parker series.

DM Vac-Fil and more:

http://www.fountainp...om-the-thoities

Non Vac-Fil DM's by Parker:

http://fountainpenbo...ker-exc-vac-fil

Though those wander a bit, what with trying to show the style linkage to Parkers, proper.

Might be good to show the few ads with lower resolution and to just list the pens and series from DM, without all the effort at linkage.

For example, the four plastic patterns seen for DM Vac Fil (Plaque-on-Black, Web, Lines, Pinstripes) each are shown in one ad, without overlap of styles, that appear from 1935-1938.

For the button fill pens I showed in my last post, the three pens on left, including my new find in Moderne Black/Pearl plastic, seem to be derived from Duofld, while the pen on right in green resembles both the DM Vac Fil and Deluxe Challenger. I'll bet the ads show one or the other type.

More later.

regards

david

[david i]

Oh yeah... looking at David's spread of rebadged Parkers, he perhaps unintentionally raised a question I had planned to pursue for the last few weeks, but had not yet managed.

This... question...

More on it later.




regards

David