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Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series


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#1 Miami_Marlins_fan

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:56 PM

Hello, I am new to this forum, but not new to fountain pens. I just purchased two Esterbrook Dollar pens from Dr. Isaacson, and I was wondering why Dollar pens don't seem to be as sought after as the J-Series or other Esterbrook pens? I was searching Esterbrook online and there is literally a million things on the different types of J-Series, but not a lot on the Dollar Pens. I don't understand, because they look pretty and seem to carry more history than the J-Series. Does anyone else here collect Dollar pens? If so, can you give me a hint of what to expect when I receive my two Dollar pens?

#2 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:21 AM

Hello, I am new to this forum, but not new to fountain pens. I just purchased two Esterbrook Dollar pens from Dr. Isaacson, and I was wondering why Dollar pens don't seem to be as sought after as the J-Series or other Esterbrook pens? I was searching Esterbrook online and there is literally a million things on the different types of J-Series, but not a lot on the Dollar Pens. I don't understand, because they look pretty and seem to carry more history than the J-Series. Does anyone else here collect Dollar pens? If so, can you give me a hint of what to expect when I receive my two Dollar pens?


Hi,

The comparative ranking (value, cachet, interest, etc) of various series (intra or inter manufacturer) no doubt poses charm and challenge. I'm not pro-from-Dover with Esterbrook, but my first thought is that the Dollar Pens are considered better pens than are typical J-family pens, at least amongst those who are well familiar with the brand. Certainly they are earlier and somewhat more uncommon than the J's, good things from a collecting standpoint. I charge more (pretty sure El Zorno and Richard as well) for these than for similar (color/size) J-family pens. Whether they are as well known on average as the J-series pens... I cannot say. Interesting Vacumatics and Duofolds often are less well known in basic collecting circles than are more common variants. I'm open to different views of course, but I agree they are historically a bit more interesting than the J's. You'll have to let me know how the pens turn out. I like happy customers :)

regards

david
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#3 Miami_Marlins_fan

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:02 AM

Well David, I suppose I'm going to have to be the pioneer to start putting more information about these beauties online, and getting people to take a second look at these nice pieces of Esterbrook history. I'll make sure to let you know what I think of them, and I'll take some time to give these pens a proper review. I have no prior experience with Esterbook, but I have decided to collect as many Esterbrooks as I can while the prices are still good. Something tells me if I don't start to snap these beauties off the market now, 20 years from now I'll be kicking myself for not getting them while they were cheaper and more abundant. I'll try to pick 3 or 4 different Esterbrook Dollar pens every single year until I have all the colors/varieties, then probably move to the J-Series pens.

Edited by Miami_Marlins_fan, 31 March 2012 - 03:02 AM.


#4 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:05 AM

Well David, I suppose I'm going to have to be the pioneer to start putting more information about these beauties online, and getting people to take a second look at these nice pieces of Esterbrook history. I'll make sure to let you know what I think of them, and I'll take some time to give these pens a proper review. I have no prior experience with Esterbook, but I have decided to collect as many Esterbrooks as I can while the prices are still good. Something tells me if I don't start to snap these beauties off the market now, 20 years from now I'll be kicking myself for not getting them while they were cheaper and more abundant. I'll try to pick 3 or 4 different Esterbrook Dollar pens every single year until I have all the colors/varieties, then probably move to the J-Series pens.




I probably should not show you the mint stickered better-color pastels I just picked up ;)

-d


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#5 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:36 PM

I'll try to pick 3 or 4 different Esterbrook Dollar pens every single year until I have all the colors/varieties, then probably move to the J-Series pens.


Keep in mind, Dollars came in three sizes and six colors...18 pens for a full set. But then three different clip treatments.

Total of 54 pens.

At four pens per year...well you do the arithmetic, but you're going to be at this for a while.

The reason for their higher price is that there are fewer of them. They are older than J's, made for a shorter period of time, and the plastic
(particularly for the Brown color) is more fragile than the J series...tends to get brittle and crack easily.

More.

There is a rational reason why J's have a solid clip. Dollar clips were easily sprung/broken. Hence fewer of them in good condition.

If you want to get ahead of the curve, chase $1.50 Cracked Ice pens. They're already at $400plus, and only headed north.

Good luck

#6 David Nishimura

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:23 PM

David, will you join me in my campaign to rename the so-called "cracked ice" Esterbrooks, "crushed ice"?

The latter term is more descriptive of their actual appearance, while "cracked ice" already has a long-established meaning that is entirely different (i. e., black blocks separated by silver or gold lines, as used on Conway Stewarts).









#7 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:45 PM

David, will you join me in my campaign to rename the so-called "cracked ice" Esterbrooks, "crushed ice"?

The latter term is more descriptive of their actual appearance, while "cracked ice" already has a long-established meaning that is entirely different (i. e., black blocks separated by silver or gold lines, as used on Conway Stewarts).


Hi David,

Sure, I live for pen campaigns ;)

Whlle I'm not heavily emotionally invested in the jargon of Esterbrooks, I do tend to enjoy in general adding accuracy and specificity to the lexicon of pendom. Crushed ice for this sort would seem better than cracked ice, I agree, assuming all of us are referencing the same style, say the top couple pens in this spread.

Posted Image




Though, for now, probably best not to get into campaigsn for use of of candy-stripe Parkers (Televisor plastic, or Valentine plastic, as seen on some rare English Vacumatics) or of off-catalogue/fancy/special/jeweler's cap-band Balances Posted Image

regards

d
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#8 Miami_Marlins_fan

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:16 PM


I'll try to pick 3 or 4 different Esterbrook Dollar pens every single year until I have all the colors/varieties, then probably move to the J-Series pens.


Keep in mind, Dollars came in three sizes and six colors...18 pens for a full set. But then three different clip treatments.

Total of 54 pens.

At four pens per year...well you do the arithmetic, but you're going to be at this for a while.

The reason for their higher price is that there are fewer of them. They are older than J's, made for a shorter period of time, and the plastic
(particularly for the Brown color) is more fragile than the J series...tends to get brittle and crack easily.

More.

There is a rational reason why J's have a solid clip. Dollar clips were easily sprung/broken. Hence fewer of them in good condition.

If you want to get ahead of the curve, chase $1.50 Cracked Ice pens. They're already at $400plus, and only headed north.

Good luck


Thanks for putting it into perspective. I think for now I'll just get one of each color, and move to the J-Series. I'll worry about the complete sets of different clip treatments later over time. And yes, 3 or 4 is a low ball figure. Knowing me, I would not be surprised if I ended up acquiring 6-8 Esterbrook pens a year. At least that's how many Pelikans I was purchasing a year when I got the Pelikan collector bug.

#9 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:27 PM


David, will you join me in my campaign to rename the so-called "cracked ice" Esterbrooks, "crushed ice"?

The latter term is more descriptive of their actual appearance, while "cracked ice" already has a long-established meaning that is entirely different (i. e., black blocks separated by silver or gold lines, as used on Conway Stewarts).


Hi David,

Sure, I live for pen campaigns ;)

Whlle I'm not heavily emotionally invested in the jargon of Esterbrooks, I do tend to enjoy in general adding accuracy and specificity to the lexicon of pendom. Crushed ice for this sort would seem better than cracked ice, I agree, assuming all of us are referencing the same style, say the top couple pens in this spread.
Though, for now, probably best not to get into campaigsn for use of of candy-stripe Parkers (Televisor plastic, or Valentine plastic, as seen on some rare English Vacumatics) or of off-catalogue/fancy/special/jeweler's cap-band Balances :rolleyes:

regards

d


It is foolish enough to be an expert in, of all things, fountain pens, but to quibble about whether the term is cracked or crushed is puerile.

Some days all this Talmudic pedantry becomes tiresome. This is one of them.

Dan

#10 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:43 PM

It is foolish enough to be an expert in, of all things, fountain pens, but to quibble about whether the term is cracked or crushed is puerile.

Some days all this Talmudic pedantry becomes tiresome. This is one of them.

Dan


Hi Dan,

I do, of course disagree, save for considering what any given person might find tiresome. That, of course, is his business ;)

I don't see any quibbling going on. Rather I see the same exploration of terms that lets us differentiate a home brew frankenpen from "rare prototype I've never seen before". The circles of exegesis and of analysis no doubt overlap "Talmudic" on the ol' Venn Diagram, but none of those processes intrinsically is pedantic. Indeed, the very core of chevrusa learning that characterizes Talmud study is structured to avoid pedantry.

Nearly everything that thousands of pen collectors today take for granted, take as given, was developed by earlier generations of collectors doing research, making observations... and engaging in (generally) good natured pil-pul. One might be surprised at the number of terms that have evolved during the last decade, the number of assumptions that have been found to be wrong, the pens about which our knowledge has sharpened and improved.

Of course, that's one man's view of the process. Certainly there is room to argue with the other David why Cracked Ice might be an acceptable or at least reasonable term for both patterns. But, I'm not sure what is gained by squelching the very curiosity about and discussion of such topics.

In this particular case, "Cracked Ice" (similar perhaps to another used n' abused term, Demonstrator) long has had a fairly specific application, to a pattern mentioned by the other David, particularly found amongst Conway Stewart pens. It seems only verrrry recently the term started being used for Esties. Indeed, I'm not sure I've had conscious recognition of its application to Esties prior to this thread. As its use on Esties seems an attempt to map an old term to a relatively newly collected series, I see room to explore the jargon.

Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.

What can I say... this stuff interests me :)

regards

david
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#11 Jim B

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:03 PM

I like crushed ice.

Disparate designs should not have the same names as David N. has pointed out, lessening potential confusion is good and hardly Talmudic pedantry.

#12 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

In this particular case, "Cracked Ice" (similar perhaps to another used n' abused term, Demonstrator) long has had a fairly specific application, to a pattern mentioned by the other David, particularly found amongst Conway Stewart pens. It seems only verrrry recently the term started being used for Esties. Indeed, I'm not sure I've had conscious recognition of its application to Esties prior to this thread. As its use on Esties seems an attempt to map an old term to a relatively newly collected series, I see room to explore the jargon.


DI:
The language is rich in terms that have been gracefully ported forward. A sedan was carried by four men with two poles long before it had four doors and an internal combustion engine. To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.

I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens. Scroll down here: http://www.esterbrook.net/bah.shtml Its use long pre-dates this thread.


Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.


It becomes foolish when bona-fides are re-enforced with the intellectual equivalent of separating fly feces from ground pepper.

What can I say... this stuff interests me Posted Image


Me too
Best,
Dan

Edited by Admin, 31 March 2012 - 10:12 PM.


#13 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

I like crushed ice.

Disparate designs should not have the same names as David N. has pointed out, lessening potential confusion is good and hardly Talmudic pedantry.


You guys iz killin' me.

I suspect my biggest gripe (and it is in good cheer, no worries) in this thread is the linkage of "Talmudic" to "pedantry". One can be a pedant and one can be Talmudic, but the linkage would seem to mark an assertion that Talmudic processes exemplify the notion of pedantry, which just is not so.

... or is that getting too pedantic ;)

-d


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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#14 Miami_Marlins_fan

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:21 PM

I had no idea my thread would re-start the Great Inquisition over crushed ice vs. cracked ice. Personally, crushed ice sounds better to me. When I hear "cracked" associated with a fountain pen, the first thing that comes to mind is a nasty barrel or cap crack, not the description of a pen's color.

#15 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:30 PM

DI:
The language is rich in terms that have been gracefully ported forward. A sedan was carried by four men with two poles long before it had four doors and an internal combustion engine. To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.

I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens. Scroll down here: http://www.esterbrook.net/bah.shtml Its use long pre-dates this thread.


From DI: Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.




SNIP


Hi Dan,

Oy, we've waded into it this time.

For moment I'll put aside your discussion of whether Cracked Ice is a good term or not. I've already claimed there is fair reason to discuss that and I certainly recognize final individual opinions about the answer can vary, even if at the moment I lean to the idea that Crushed Ice might be a better term. But, whether Cracked or Crushed Ice is the better term was not the point of your prior post, which was to assert the puerile nature of the very discussion, with comments that seeking expertise in fountain pen collecting is foolishness, and that the whole subject is tiresome.

The bigger thing in your current post is that you seem to have already disproved the core thesis of your prior post, that the discussion of terms for this Estie plastic is puerile. You are interested enough in it to take a stand on which name you prefer, as per, "I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens."

You presumably don't consider your involvement or your sharing opinion to be puerile, thus the discussion could not be puerile earlier when others were venturing opinions ;)

I remain willing to concede that whether a subject is tiresome is wholly subjective, so there is not much to say on that secondary point.

Finally, I really do disagree with any claim that it is foolishness to-- per se-- seek expertise in a collectables field. Expertise is fun to seek and serves both the expert and (hopefully) the hobby well.

To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.


To be blunt... this is an assertion that others might not share, and it is one that tends, again, to squelch exploration. All exploration, study and invention risk ultimate lack of success. So... never try?

Indeed, you've taken a stand on your belief that cracked is a good term. If there were no merit to the discussion, why bother?

It becomes foolish when bona-fides are re-enforced with the intellectual equivalent of separating fly feces from ground pepper.





I'm not sure from where this comes. What did the thread have to do with re-enforcing any sort of bonafides? And, if the conversation was trivial and pointless, what's the worry if those who do care about the terms, play with 'em? ;)

regards

d
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#16 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:39 PM


I like crushed ice.

Disparate designs should not have the same names as David N. has pointed out, lessening potential confusion is good and hardly Talmudic pedantry.


You guys iz killin' me.

I suspect my biggest gripe (and it is in good cheer, no worries) in this thread is the linkage of "Talmudic" to "pedantry". One can be a pedant and one can be Talmudic, but the linkage would seem to mark an assertion that Talmudic processes exemplify the notion of pedantry, which just is not so.

... or is that getting too pedantic ;)

-d



DI:
Of course, Talmudic scholarship is not pedantic.
Only, when any scholarship starts to focus on minor details for the purpose of establishing academic acuity it devolves that way, and the bigger intent gets lost.
Dan

Edited by Blotto, 31 March 2012 - 10:40 PM.


#17 david i

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:59 PM

[

DI:
Of course, Talmudic scholarship is not pedantic.
Only, when any scholarship starts to focus on minor details for the purpose of establishing academic acumen it devolves that way, and the bigger intent gets lost.
Dan


Hi Dan,

OK. We're clear then on the Talmud thing ;)

Still, you seem to be engaging in a hefty measure of telepathy, reading an awful lot of specific purpose into a discussion of the sort that long has characterized pendom... that of naming things. Too, based on general tone to comments (feel free to correct me), you see something negative in having a discussion for purely academic reasons?

Whether or not a chat of this sort could establish academic significance for individuals, I suspect that no party to the chat felt need to establish his pencademic credentials. Both parties have a hefty record of research and of authorship already ;)

I still see no devolution implicit to a chat about color, patterns and nomenclature in the pendom context. What bigger intent was there beyond, "Is there a better descriptor for an Esterbrook pattern than one currently in use?"

As an aside, around the year 2001 I posted a 5000 word (needs serious paring) essay on Stylophiles Online entitled, "The Great Slender Maxima Debate", to clarify which Parker Vacumatic really was the Slender Maxima and (in my hope) to stop the widespread puffery (intentional or not) prevalent at the time of ascribing that rather lofty name ( "Slender Maxima" carries great power) to a passel of Vacumatics that Parker never intended to be Slender Maxima. A few people then knew the series well enough that my post was not news. That did not invalidate the merit of the essay. Today far fewer people seem to call non-Slender Max pens by that name. Should I not have bothered to write that article, just because it was nit-picky? Or because some might disagree with my view? Or because it could be construed as being self-serving, to establish academic credibility? Or because I might have failed to make a good case?

Seriously, revisiting old assumptions is part of the growth of the hobby. That's my view :)


regards

david
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#18 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:30 PM


DI:
The language is rich in terms that have been gracefully ported forward. A sedan was carried by four men with two poles long before it had four doors and an internal combustion engine. To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.

I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens. Scroll down here: http://www.esterbrook.net/bah.shtml Its use long pre-dates this thread.


From DI: Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.




SNIP


Hi Dan,

Oy, we've waded into it this time.

For moment I'll put aside your discussion of whether Cracked Ice is a good term or not. I've already claimed there is fair reason to discuss that and I certainly recognize final individual opinions about the answer can vary, even if at the moment I lean to the idea that Crushed Ice might be a better term. But, whether Cracked or Crushed Ice is the better term was not the point of your prior post, which was to assert the puerile nature of the very discussion, with comments that seeking expertise in fountain pen collecting is foolishness, and that the whole subject is tiresome.




DI:
To pursue clarity when none is needed is a bad use of energy...foolish. Foolish pursuits are tiresome.




The bigger thing in your current post is that you seem to have already disproved the core thesis of your prior post, that the discussion of terms for this Estie plastic is puerile. You are interested enough in it to take a stand on which name you prefer, as per, "I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens."

You presumably don't consider your involvement or your sharing opinion to be puerile, thus the discussion could not be puerile earlier when others were venturing opinions Posted Image




Nice syllogism, except I didn't initiate the call for a campaign, and that is what is puerile.





I remain willing to concede that whether a subject is tiresome is wholly subjective, so there is not much to say on that secondary point.

Finally, I really do disagree with any claim that it is foolishness to-- per se-- seek expertise in a collectables field. Expertise is fun to seek and serves both the expert and (hopefully) the hobby well.

To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.


To be blunt... this is an assertion that others might not share, and it is one that tends, again, to squelch exploration. All exploration, study and invention risk ultimate lack of success. So... never try?




You're reaching for higher ground, but only moving onto thinner ice. The key is meaningful exploration, not the re-invention of the wheel.




Indeed, you've taken a stand on your belief that cracked is a good term. If there were no merit to the discussion, why bother?




Then why bother to change a term that thousands of EsteNuts use with complete understanding?

It becomes foolish when bona-fides are re-enforced with the intellectual equivalent of separating fly feces from ground pepper.





I'm not sure from where this comes. What did the thread have to do with re-enforcing any sort of bonafides? And, if the conversation was trivial and pointless, what's the worry if those who do care about the terms, play with 'em? ;)

regards

d



#19 Blotto

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:41 PM

David:
Enjoyed the banter. We should pursue this over a glass on the patio of the Manhattan Beach Marriott next year.
Dan

#20 David Nishimura

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:59 PM

Dan, this really isn't a case of scholastic (a better term here than "Talmudic") hair-splitting of the sort exemplified by "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" (16, I believe ;) ).

My objection to the application of the application of the term, "Cracked Ice" to the above-illustrated Esterbrooks is purely practical: the term had been applied to a very different and very specific type of celluloid decades before it began to be applied by Esterbrook collectors to a completely different sort of material. The original term was coined back in the late '80s, and immediately gained currency among pen collectors worldwide.

When one term is used to mean multiple things, there is a real risk of it ending up meaning nothing. We are beginning to see warning signs of this with "Cracked Ice", as I see some now using it to mean virtually any sort of pearlescent plastic with a veined pattern. Even if one were to argue that there is no problem, in that it is clear what is intended by "Cracked Ice" from context (Conway Stewart vs Esterbrook), it really isn't. Though they are comparatively rare, there are English-made Esterbrooks made by Conway Stewart in true Cracked Ice. And there are European pens made in materials that are very similar to CS Cracked Ice, for which there will no longer be a clear descriptor if the Esterbrookians definition gains general currency.

So my reason for pushing for adoption of "crushed ice" for the Esterbrooks is far from pedantic. It is in the service of clarity -- and, I would venture to say, poetry. Isn't it a beautiful thing, to be able to coin a new term that is both clearer and more accurate? How can one object to building a richer vocabulary for describing the incredible variety of vintage celluloid patterns?









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