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Strange Wahl Pen Set


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#1 Jiffypens

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:22 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...c#ht_500wt_1413

What model is this? It looks like an equipoised set, but something seems off. Posted Image

#2 david i

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:01 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...c#ht_500wt_1413

What model is this? It looks like an equipoised set, but something seems off. Posted Image



http://fountainpenbo...oised-a-mutant/


Looks like that auction closed on a low-run/mutant/special-purpose/limited-market/proto-Poised.

Posted Image


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d
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#3 sloegin

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:22 AM

It then proceeded to sell for $160 in as a BIN. Link for the skeptical

Edited by sloegin, 07 May 2012 - 02:25 AM.


#4 david i

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:37 AM

It then proceeded to sell for $160 in as a BIN. Link for the skeptical



Backchannel deals... happen.

regards

d



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#5 JB Apelbaum

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:55 AM

I am sure that the seller would have been very upset to learn that their pen and pencil set would have likely fetched anywhere from $500 to $1,000 had the auction been allowed to run.

I don't think backchannel deal is the best description. Perhaps 'taking advantage' of a seller is a better phrase?

Regards,

Barry

Edited by JB Apelbaum, 09 May 2012 - 05:55 AM.


#6 david i

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:40 AM

I am sure that the seller would have been very upset to learn that their pen and pencil set would have likely fetched anywhere from $500 to $1,000 had the auction been allowed to run.

I don't think backchannel deal is the best description. Perhaps 'taking advantage' of a seller is a better phrase?

Regards,

Barry




Hi Barry,

I hear you, but IMO backhannel deal is entirely accurate. I certainly didn't comment as to who benefitted more from the deal Posted Image

I would not have minded the chance to bid on the item, but that's the way the ball bounces. I'll have to wait for the next one.

regards

david
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#7 Hugh

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

I'm certainly guilty of making "back channel" offers, although not with the intention of "ripping off" the seller....more to try to avoid buying a whole lot of extras I don't want !! Mostly I actually get to buy cheaper than my offer, once I offered a seller 3 times what I ended up buying the lot for (..well it wasn't "big" money...paid $15...)...somewhat to the surprise of both buyer and seller. At the end of the day it's the seller who makes the choice to sell or not and they get to wear the consequences, low offers are part of life. It will be interesting to see if these resurface in due course and who's selling them.

Regards
Hugh
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#8 plmadding

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:27 PM

I have sold a few pens on ebay and with each of them I have been made a back channel offer. I consistently deny their offer and invite them to bid on the item. This has led to, in one case, the item selling for $20 less than what I had a BIN offer for. That was unfortunate, but I do not regret my decision. I just don't think it is a good practice to end auctions early.

Preston

#9 JB Apelbaum

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:30 AM

Hi all,

My earlier comments were not a criticism of any of the previous posts on this thread. It was a criticism, for which I invite opinions, about the ethics of backchannel offers. Without digressing into the philosophy of the 'free market', it's my opinion that there is something intuitively wrong with the scenario whereby:

a a person with no experience in fountain pens lists a pen for sale on eBay;
b they do so in good faith and with the desire that the auction process will get them the best price for their item. The item is listed with a starting bid of 0.99c, reflecting the fact that the seller has no idea how much the pen is worth;
c an experienced pen collector, who understands that the pen is worth a fortune, immediately emails the seller and offers them $100;
d to the seller this seems like a good bargain. The seller is induced to remove the pen from eBay.

I'm not suggesting there should be laws against this sort of conduct. But that doesn't mean it is not unethical.

Let me give a personal example: Several years ago, I made the occasional backchannel offer. A seller listed a Wahl Eversharp 'flamingo'. They clearly had no idea what it was worth. I emailed the person and offered something like $100, which they accepted. I then felt guilty and retracted my offer, and told them it was worth more than that and they should let the auction run. The pen sold for, I think, about $800 (it had a nasty crack in the threads).

Regards,

Barry

Edited by JB Apelbaum, 10 May 2012 - 01:33 AM.


#10 david i

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:52 AM

Hi all,

My earlier comments were not a criticism of any of the previous posts on this thread. It was a criticism, for which I invite opinions, about the ethics of backchannel offers. Without digressing into the philosophy of the 'free market', it's my opinion that there is something intuitively wrong with the scenario whereby:

SNIP

Barry


A classic, either an oldie-but-goodie or an oldie-but-baddie depending on one's spin. You'd be amazed at the overwhelming rage the anti-backchannel crowd has evinced on some prior discussions of this theme ;

I don't have grand answers. Comes down to mixed picture.

In old days one argument (bit of a distraction from the buyer-seller issue) was that ebay was robbed of fees for backchannel deals since initially the players had agreed to go through ebay. That today most such dealings end with a BIN (not available in the old days), has obviated the not-playing-through-ebay thing, to some extent.

We've heard examples of BC deals giving seemingly unduly low prices and a couple examples of pens at auction selling for less than the BC offer.

Some make offers at amazing lowball. Others want the security of getting the item and make reasonable offer.


But, while seller might be at disadvantage on price (on other hand, I've BC'd well known collectors and closed deals to secure the item), sellers in most cases are well aware that auctions can bring higher prices. If they choose to go for bird in hand, that is part of game theory. No one forces them to close, and if they are induced by even a silly lowball, well... freedom of choice. If they had item in antiques shop and accepted a counter...

And so forth...

regards

david
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#11 sloegin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:05 AM

What is the original Whal set worth?

I caught a guy trying to sell a Hemingway for a stupid price. I stopped him. He still sold it for a stupid price but $1000 more than when I caught him.

I just bought a cordovan DJ for $35 (it is missing a cap), via back channel.

Do the research. Consult an expert. Or, live and let live.

#12 david i

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:22 AM

What is the original Whal set worth?

I caught a guy trying to sell a Hemingway for a stupid price. I stopped him. He still sold it for a stupid price but $1000 more than when I caught him.

I just bought a cordovan DJ for $35 (it is missing a cap), via back channel.

Do the research. Consult an expert. Or, live and let live.


Rare item. Esoteric. Small but intense market. Minimum $600 if decent, IF two motivated players were at it.
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#13 David Nishimura

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 02:04 PM

Leaving the ethical issue to the side for the moment, what I think galls so many of us when we see a backchannel deal of this sort is the loss of the opportunity to get our bids in. If we weren't in the running, I don't think we'd care much at all. The outrage may be expressed in terms of how the seller got shafted, but the real outrage is over other bidders being shut out.  

I put in a lot of bids on eBay, and if I were to write to each seller and either offer a backchannel deal or ask them to give me a chance before accepting a backchannel deal, that just would not be practical. Even if I were to use a boilerplate template for each message, it still takes a good amount of time to click through to send it. I suppose if backchannel deals became a big enough problem, I'd have to make the time. Nonetheless, it is a considerable added hassle, that does take time that could be spent more profitably searching and bidding on other items.



#14 david i

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 03:51 PM

Leaving the ethical issue to the side for the moment, what I think galls so many of us when we see a backchannel deal of this sort is the loss of the opportunity to get our bids in. If we weren't in the running, I don't think we'd care much at all. The outrage may be expressed in terms of how the seller got shafted, but the real outrage is over other bidders being shut out.

I put in a lot of bids on eBay, and if I were to write to each seller and either offer a backchannel deal or ask them to give me a chance before accepting a backchannel deal, that just would not be practical. Even if I were to use a boilerplate template for each message, it still takes a good amount of time to click through to send it. I suppose if backchannel deals became a big enough problem, I'd have to make the time. Nonetheless, it is a considerable added hassle, that does take time that could be spent more profitably searching and bidding on other items.



Agree it is not an enjoyable experience to lose chance to bid on that which one wants to bid. Been there. But, in recognizing that aspect one at least is not presenting personal annoyance as a seemingly loftier argument, which is not to say-- again-- that there are not loftier issues to assess.

As to the final point as to practicality of pursuing the approach on a a regular basis... whether you or I could or would, I know of some fellows who've made an art of the process. Suspect you know some too. So it goes...

regards

d
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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#15 BamaPen

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:52 PM

I had a fortunate experience last year involving a possible backchannel deal. I found among our stuff a Zippo lighter with a handpainted fishing scene on it, still in the original box, pure white, never lighted wick. I had absolutely no knowledge of Zippos, so put it on ebay with a starting bid of $19.95. Almost immediately I got a message offering $250 to end the auction. I was astounded - $250 for a Zippo?? - when a second message arrived warning me of lowballs and telling me the true collector value of the lighter - $1100 or more. I took that person's advice, kept the auction in play and got the price he said it woud bring. He was not even a bidder, just someone who knew the value and recognized my ignorance.

I might very well have accepted the $250 offer had it not been for that Good Samaritan. So, the moral of the story is: when you see something on ebay that clearly is underpriced by a less than knowledgable seller, give them a tip about what they have. Then they can take a backchannel offer if they wish, but not be taken advantage of.

#16 FarmBoy

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 02:32 AM

I always enjoy this debate and it seems to come up regularly on collector boards. I rarely participate in the debate.

Instead of talking about it I propose everyone have some fun with my four step plan.

1: Sign up for a new ebay account.
2: List a valuable pen (>500 USD) with a 99 cent starting bid -- toss in a few shaky pictures and for fun use the 'I know nothing about pens' or 'I'm cleaning out grandma's house' ploy.
3: Wait for the low ball offers.
4: Cancel the listing leaving everyone wondering.

You will learn a lot.


Todd

Edited by FarmBoy, 11 May 2012 - 02:32 AM.


#17 david i

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 05:24 AM

I always enjoy this debate and it seems to come up regularly on collector boards. I rarely participate in the debate.

Instead of talking about it I propose everyone have some fun with my four step plan.

1: Sign up for a new ebay account.
2: List a valuable pen (>500 USD) with a 99 cent starting bid -- toss in a few shaky pictures and for fun use the 'I know nothing about pens' or 'I'm cleaning out grandma's house' ploy.
3: Wait for the low ball offers.
4: Cancel the listing leaving everyone wondering.

You will learn a lot.


Todd



Hi Todd,

I greatly admire evil suggestions like that. My sort of thinking. You should be playing here more often Posted Image



regards

david
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#18 Procyon

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:54 PM

Todd, from now on, I am calling you "Evil FarmBoy". :P

Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan


#19 Jiffypens

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

I wouldn't really call it unethical when it comes to making buy it now offers. Reason being is that the person I purchased the Wahl set from probably paid no more than $20 for it. For him, the deal was great, making over $100 profit.
That being said, if I had the means to pay full retail, I would. I am only 17, and being so young I can't compete with the older collectors.

-Gabriel

#20 david i

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:53 AM

I wouldn't really call it unethical when it comes to making buy it now offers. Reason being is that the person I purchased the Wahl set from probably paid no more than $20 for it. For him, the deal was great, making over $100 profit.
That being said, if I had the means to pay full retail, I would. I am only 17, and being so young I can't compete with the older collectors.

-Gabriel




Which is one reason these threads tend to become heated. My key observation at this stage, to keep things limited, is that independent of whether or not backchannel ebay dealings are ethical (or can be ethical) , that whether the seller made a profit has nothing to do with the ethicality of the transaction and indeed is a Straw Man..

One could as easily say, if one wishes to insist on judging or rating the profits of others as key to ethics... suppose this guy sold a pen for $100 eager to raise money for his starving sister, but would have ended up with $500 rather than $100, thus limiting his ability to help her, had he not been "lured into a bad deal". And so forth...

Similarly, as an aside, that one cannot compete with richer patrons is not a good justification, for, say, shoplifting or for movie theft on the internet, though often such justification is so cited.

Verily tromping through the quagmire... ;)

d
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