45 replies to this topic

[brando090]

I just had a flashback to a talk i had with a great pen guy over in NY, and i remember him telling me how some guy found a bag of Waterman Doll pens, with or without boxes im not sure (probably not is my guess). Anyways, what a terrific find that must of been, but ill be driving several hours from where im stationed currently, and if i have a chance ill be looking at some antique shops, and what a day it will be if i find a bag of pens My question is, i know of the BHR Doll, RHR Doll, and Safety Doll... but did Waterman ever make any overlay Doll pens or ripple Doll pens?

Edited by brando090, 01 September 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[FarmBoy]

It would be interesting to hear comment from David N. with regard to this topic. I recall scans from an early trade magazine that discussed the pen in question found a few years back.

[brando090]

Here is mine for those who this might entertain.




When i did some research the first say i received this pen, i came across these pens. Ive never seen these cases before, also very rare. I know of 4 types of cases, the type you see above, the scarce case in which a Doll was sold at Penopoly, and the bottom two.

RHR Waterman Doll, sold just under $4,800 5 years ago, IMO worth $5.5-7k in today's market (only 5-6 known in existence);




Waterman Doll Safety pen, which i remember hearing is more common (or vice versa?) but this case ive never seen;




This pen is commonly called 'World's Smallest Fountain Pen' and is sometimes incorrectly called 'Baby' as those were the names for the safety 42 1/2 V's/VS's,etc. Also Waterman names these No. 000 which is the catalog name, but the name 'Doll' is also up in the air since Waterman visited Queen Mary's Doll house and made a pen for that, as so the name Waterman Doll has some sense to do with the pen.

Edited by brando090, 01 September 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[David Nishimura]

There's so much misinformation here that I don't know where to begin. So I won't.

Enjoy the holiday weekend, everyone!

[david i]

There's so much misinformation here that I don't know where to begin. So I won't.

Enjoy the holiday weekend, everyone!

Welcome to our world, David.

Actually, when you have a quiet minute, tossing out even a few words on this subject would be greatly appreciated. Waterman pens of this era are not my strong suit, even though I've shot a bunch and handled a couple. I could dive in... to a point... but no regulars here are very strong on early-ish Waterman. Your facility with these-- even in brief-- will serve the cause well.

regards

david

[david i]

RHR Waterman Doll, sold just under $4,800 5 years ago, IMO worth $5.5-7k in today's market (only 5-6 known in existence);

At the very least I remain always curious how you repeatedly announce and assess "the market". Do you just invent it? Have you observed pens of this or of related category sold in similar venue and of similar variant and condition in recent and in prior years? Have you experienced the market?

regards

David

[brando090]

RHR Waterman Doll, sold just under $4,800 5 years ago, IMO worth $5.5-7k in today's market (only 5-6 known in existence);

At the very least I remain always curious how you repeatedly announce and assess "the market". Do you just invent it? Have you observed pens of this or of related category sold in similar venue and of similar variant and condition in recent and in prior years? Have you experienced the market?

regards

David

Well i do know that the market is down, but that this pen is still strongly in demand, as supply has diminished. I have gotten a good feel for going prices for the pen i have, but the others i dont have a lot of time in researching demand.

[brando090]

There's so much misinformation here that I don't know where to begin. So I won't.

Enjoy the holiday weekend, everyone!

David N.,

As one of my personal advocates for rare pens, i appreciate your opinions on everything. Please educate me a bit on this pen, and ive now learned while reading that there are only three types of Waterman 000's (Safety, BHR, and RHR).

[George]

RHR Waterman Doll, sold just under $4,800 5 years ago, IMO worth $5.5-7k in today's market (only 5-6 known in existence)

I know of more than 5-6 RHR world's smallest pens in existence. The large find of many world's smallest pens some years back certainly doesn't help in making these pens "rare" or "one of only a handful known", though no doubt many are in private collections.

This pen is commonly called 'World's Smallest Fountain Pen' and is sometimes incorrectly called 'Baby' as those were the names for the safety 42 1/2 V's/VS's,etc. Also Waterman names these No. 000 which is the catalog name, but the name 'Doll' is also up in the air since Waterman visited Queen Mary's Doll house and made a pen for that, as so the name Waterman Doll has some sense to do with the pen.

From observation, the world's smallest safety is harder to find than the regular slip cap version.

The "baby" name was used by Waterman for the Waterman Baby pen. There was a topic here on FPB about these baby pens, which are different than the tiny world's smallest pen: http://fountainpenbo.../2688-doll-pen/

A picture of the Baby pen can be seen on page 45 of the 1908 Waterman catalog available through the PCA Library.

I do not know if pens such as safeties with a X42 1/2 V designation were ever called "Baby" by Waterman.

To the best of my knowledge, the worlds smallest pen was never in any Waterman catalog. An article about this "novelty" pen lists the name of the world's smallest as No. 000. See Lion and Pen for more information : http://kamakurapens....?showtopic=2076

The name "Doll" is most certainly not up in the air. I don't know where you got that a Waterman family member visited Queen Mary's Doll house and had a pen made just for the doll house. That information would be quite an interesting story if true. Care to share?

Regards,
George

[George]

There's so much misinformation here that I don't know where to begin. So I won't.

Enjoy the holiday weekend, everyone!

David N.,

As one of my personal advocates for rare pens, i appreciate your opinions on everything. Please educate me a bit on this pen, and ive now learned while reading that there are only three types of Waterman 000's (Safety, BHR, and RHR).

I think there are 4 3 types of these pens, in red rubber and black rubber in a slip cap and a black safety variant.



Regards,
George

Edited by George, 02 September 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[david i]

Well i do know that the market is down, but that this pen is still strongly in demand, as supply has diminished. I have gotten a good feel for going prices for the pen i have, but the others i dont have a lot of time in researching demand.

You then "know" the cited pen is up in value though you also "know" the market is down. As with the 452's no doubt. How many pens from 1900-1940 are of increased supply in this down market? Charming

Furthermore, note that supply and demand generally are portrayed as orthogonal axes when drawing price curves relative to those factors.

As to good feel for going prices... howzat going on the green Sheaffer and such ?

Seriously... sheesh.

-d

[david i]

I know of more than 5-6 RHR world's smallest pens in existence. The large find of many world's smallest pens some years back certainly doesn't help in making these pens "rare" or "one of only a handful known", though no doubt many are in private collections.

The "baby" name was used by Waterman for the Waterman Baby pen. There was a topic here on FPB about these baby pens, which are different than the tiny world's smallest pen: http://fountainpenbo.../2688-doll-pen/

A picture of the Baby pen can be seen on page 45 of the 1908 Waterman catalog available through the PCA Library.

I do not know if pens such as safeties with a X42 1/2 V designation were ever called "Baby" by Waterman.

To the best of my knowledge, the worlds smallest pen was never in any Waterman catalog. An article about this "novelty" pen lists the name of the world's smallest as No. 000. See Lion and Pen for more information : http://kamakurapens....?showtopic=2076

The name "Doll" is most certainly not up in the air. I don't know where you got that a Waterman family member visited Queen Mary's Doll house and had a pen made just for the doll house. That information would be quite an interesting story if true. Care to share?

Regards,
George

Hi George, I realize you mentioned specifically the post name change (~ 1917+) safety 42 1/2 V. I can note that the pre-1917 versions of the 42 1/2 V, the 12 12/VS pens-- at least some-- are marked "baby" on the bottom additionally. I have couple.

regards

david

[david i]

Well i do know that the market is down, but that this pen is still strongly in demand, as supply has diminished. I have gotten a good feel for going prices for the pen i have, but the others i dont have a lot of time in researching demand.

Suspect I'll make a rare suggestion as to style, because, after all, I'm so diplomatic.

Enthusiasm and interest are great. Perhaps asking questions rather than making sweeping generalizations and claims will serve you better...

-d

[brando090]

RHR Waterman Doll, sold just under $4,800 5 years ago, IMO worth $5.5-7k in today's market (only 5-6 known in existence)

I know of more than 5-6 RHR world's smallest pens in existence. The large find of many world's smallest pens some years back certainly doesn't help in making these pens "rare" or "one of only a handful known", though no doubt many are in private collections.

This pen is commonly called 'World's Smallest Fountain Pen' and is sometimes incorrectly called 'Baby' as those were the names for the safety 42 1/2 V's/VS's,etc. Also Waterman names these No. 000 which is the catalog name, but the name 'Doll' is also up in the air since Waterman visited Queen Mary's Doll house and made a pen for that, as so the name Waterman Doll has some sense to do with the pen.

From observation, the world's smallest safety is harder to find than the regular slip cap version.

The "baby" name was used by Waterman for the Waterman Baby pen. There was a topic here on FPB about these baby pens, which are different than the tiny world's smallest pen: http://fountainpenbo.../2688-doll-pen/

A picture of the Baby pen can be seen on page 45 of the 1908 Waterman catalog available through the PCA Library.

I do not know if pens such as safeties with a X42 1/2 V designation were ever called "Baby" by Waterman.

To the best of my knowledge, the worlds smallest pen was never in any Waterman catalog. An article about this "novelty" pen lists the name of the world's smallest as No. 000. See Lion and Pen for more information : http://kamakurapens....?showtopic=2076

The name "Doll" is most certainly not up in the air. I don't know where you got that a Waterman family member visited Queen Mary's Doll house and had a pen made just for the doll house. That information would be quite an interesting story if true. Care to share?

Regards,
George

Some 42 1/2's were labeled on the back with "Baby" if i recall correctly. Your link as well as Richard Binder (quoted) is stating that this "Doll pen" was made for Queen Mary, and my opinion is that obviously a Waterman representative must of first commissioned it for the Doll house.

“Doll Pen” may derive from the fact that one of these pens, in black, is on the King’s Library table in the exquisite Dolls’ House built between 1921 and 1924 for England’s Queen Mary."


Also Richard Binder also indicated only a few are in existence, and i read 5-6 (weather or no its true, is debatable).

Edited by brando090, 02 September 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[George]

I know of more than 5-6 RHR world's smallest pens in existence. The large find of many world's smallest pens some years back certainly doesn't help in making these pens "rare" or "one of only a handful known", though no doubt many are in private collections.

The "baby" name was used by Waterman for the Waterman Baby pen. There was a topic here on FPB about these baby pens, which are different than the tiny world's smallest pen: http://fountainpenbo.../2688-doll-pen/

A picture of the Baby pen can be seen on page 45 of the 1908 Waterman catalog available through the PCA Library.

I do not know if pens such as safeties with a X42 1/2 V designation were ever called "Baby" by Waterman.

To the best of my knowledge, the worlds smallest pen was never in any Waterman catalog. An article about this "novelty" pen lists the name of the world's smallest as No. 000. See Lion and Pen for more information : http://kamakurapens....?showtopic=2076

The name "Doll" is most certainly not up in the air. I don't know where you got that a Waterman family member visited Queen Mary's Doll house and had a pen made just for the doll house. That information would be quite an interesting story if true. Care to share?

Regards,
George

Hi George, I realize you mentioned specifically the post name change (~ 1917+) safety 42 1/2 V. I can note that the pre-1917 versions of the 42 1/2 V, the 12 12/VS pens-- at least some-- are marked "baby" on the bottom additionally. I have couple.

regards

david

David,

Nice job catching my omission for pre-1917 pens. I should have been clearer. I wonder then, when did the Baby mark on the bottom of these safety pens stop, and when did production of the world's smallest pen start and stop.

Regards,
George

Edited by George, 02 September 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[brando090]

Well i do know that the market is down, but that this pen is still strongly in demand, as supply has diminished. I have gotten a good feel for going prices for the pen i have, but the others i dont have a lot of time in researching demand.

You then "know" the cited pen is up in value though you also "know" the market is down. As with the 452's no doubt. How many pens from 1900-1940 are of increased supply in this down market? Charming

Furthermore, note that supply and demand generally are portrayed as orthogonal axes when drawing price curves relative to those factors.

As to good feel for going prices... howzat going on the green Sheaffer and such ?

Seriously... sheesh.

-d

Im not 100% sure on your first statement, but the Sheaffer 3-25 is being sold through a well known re-seller of exquisite pens currently along with some "hard to fine" early Soennecken safeties and this Waterman 000 will also be being sold soon.

[david i]

Some 42 1/2's were labeled on the back with "Baby" if i recall correctly. Your link as well as Richard Binder (quoted) is stating that this "Doll pen" was made for Queen Mary, and my opinion is that obviously a Waterman representative must of first commissioned it for the Doll house.

“Doll Pen” may derive from the fact that one of these pens, in black, is on the King’s Library table in the exquisite Dolls’ House built between 1921 and 1924 for England’s Queen Mary."


Also Richard Binder also indicated only a few are in existence, and i read 5-6 (weather or no its true, is debatable).

I do not offhand recall 42 1/2 pens marked Baby. Observation and hypothesis are good things. Assumptions... not so much.

"Doll Pen" might (not may) have been named or first been used for a speciific doll house. I'd be happy to learn from evidence this is so. Not one of my usual foci of reading.

But observation does not require it must have (not "must of") been so commissioned for specific doll house. The thing was tiny and-- with my having done no research as to original name or ads, etc-- certainly fit that setting in general. Assuming the story of pen's use with that specific Doll House is true, that alone does not tell us origin of name or Waterman's reason to make it.

regards

david

[david i]

You then "know" the cited pen is up in value though you also "know" the market is down. As with the 452's no doubt. How many pens from 1900-1940 are of increased supply in this down market? Charming
Furthermore, note that supply and demand generally are portrayed as orthogonal axes when drawing price curves relative to those factors.

Im not 100% sure on your first statement, but the Sheaffer 3-25 is being sold through a well known re-seller of exquisite pens currently along with some "hard to fine" early Soennecken safeties and this Waterman 000 will also be being sold soon.

Ahh, the bombast thing.

I made at least three statements.

My point is you did not honor your own auction for the green pen because you were unhappy with the outcome of the auction, even after employing grandiose terms for the pen in the auction. The market you specifically chose to use spoke in that instance. We've seen how some of your ebay bargains have not been bargains. We've seen multiple claims about "the market" which lack even reasonable support in general or by you. And, barring some nuanced instances, supply and demand generally are independent processes. Prices being down (assuming they are) for a large swath of the market indicates that result of the t\ supply-demand interface . If demand is strong, supply must be stronger for prices to drop.

I am curious as to the relevance of "exquisite" in this context and of "re-seller" . Most dealers of old pens sell some exquisite and non-exquisite pens. and anyone today selling an old pen is a re-seller of that pen. I don't envy the consignment fees on a humble pen such as the green Sheaffer.

I return to core points. It's fine not to be a market guru. I certainly am not. Proud long standing hack-amateur-newbie for me. It's good to be enthusiastic. But, making sweeping claims that lack support, switching one's views of markets and prices with successive posts after hearing slightly conflicting information, having a hyper-focus on "deals", and not showing good grasp of market or of economics , damages credibility. Asking questions is grand. Wondering about things is grand. Making unduly emphatic pronouncements... not so good.

regards

d

[brando090]

You then "know" the cited pen is up in value though you also "know" the market is down. As with the 452's no doubt. How many pens from 1900-1940 are of increased supply in this down market? Charming
Furthermore, note that supply and demand generally are portrayed as orthogonal axes when drawing price curves relative to those factors.

Im not 100% sure on your first statement, but the Sheaffer 3-25 is being sold through a well known re-seller of exquisite pens currently along with some "hard to fine" early Soennecken safeties and this Waterman 000 will also be being sold soon.

Ahh, the bombast thing.

I made at least three statements.

My point is you did not honor your own auction for the green pen because you were unhappy with the outcome of the auction, even after employing grandiose terms for the pen in the auction. The market you specifically chose to use spoke in that instance. We've seen how some of your ebay bargains have not been bargains. We've seen multiple claims about "the market" which lack even reasonable support in general or by you. And, barring some nuanced instances, supply and demand generally are independent processes. Prices being down (assuming they are) for a large swath of the market indicates that result of the t\ supply-demand interface . If demand is strong, supply must be stronger for prices to drop.

I am curious as to the relevance of "exquisite" in this context and of "re-seller" . Most dealers of old pens sell some exquisite and non-exquisite pens. and anyone today selling an old pen is a re-seller of that pen. I don't envy the consignment fees on a humble pen such as the green Sheaffer.

I return to core points. It's fine not to be a market guru. I certainly am not. Proud long standing hack-amateur-newbie for me. It's good to be enthusiastic. But, making sweeping claims that lack support, switching one's views of markets and prices with successive posts after hearing slightly conflicting information, having a hyper-focus on "deals", and not showing good grasp of market or of economics , damages credibility. Asking questions is grand. Wondering about things is grand. Making unduly emphatic pronouncements... not so good.

regards

d

Well said,

And as others have said im being taught by the more educated pen people. You have my email if you have any questions.

My original post was on other Waterman 000's, but i guess i found the answer by researching myself, and knowing their are only 3 variants, unless im wrong and someone can help prove otherwise.

[Tennpen]

... the Sheaffer 3-25 is being sold through a well known re-seller of exquisite pens currently along with some "hard to fine" early Soennecken safeties and this Waterman 000 will also be being sold soon.

Who is the "well known re-seller of exquisite pens"? It could be interesting to browse their offerings.