28 replies to this topic

[Jos]

I was following this auction for a ringtop Parker Lucky Curve (Duofold?) Mandarin Yellow: link to auction

The odd thing is the bandless cap (thought to be found on the Black or Coral Red Duofold/Lucky Curve only?) and especially the yellow colored blind cap.

Can anybody comment on this pen; is this original, rare, unusual, ... ?

Edited by Jos, 09 November 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[david i]

I was following this auction for a ringtop Parker Lucky Curve (Duofold?) Mandarin Yellow: link to auction

The odd thing is the bandless cap (thought to be found on the Black or Coral Red Duofold/Lucky Curve only?) and especially the yellow colored blind cap.

Can anybody comment on this pen; is this original, rare, unusual, ... ?

Not a Duofold.

While I've not seen one before in this color it might be a yellow Ivorine. Neat. And rare. I'm amenable to counter views.

regards

daivd

[George]

David,

You are correct, it is an Ivorine. The color certainly adds to its rarity. The condition also looks superb. In my opinion, someone got a great deal.

Regards,
George

[Jos]

Not a Duofold.

While I've not seen one before in this color it might be a yellow Ivorine. Neat. And rare. I'm amenable to counter views.

regards

daivd

Thanks for the info!
I did not know that Ivorines were also made in yellow and also that some of them came with blind caps matching the color of the barrel.

[parkercollector.com]

Thanks for the info!
I did not know that Ivorines were also made in yellow and also that some of them came with blind caps matching the color of the barrel.

Here are some snaps from the Parker Archives of Ivorines:

/Tony

Edited by parkercollector.com, 09 November 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[John Danza]

I'll throw in my comments as well that this is definitely an Ivorine. While they're all rare, this is a really unusual color and the first time I've seen it in the wild. The condition is phenomenal, with not that much discoloration and no chipping or cracking. I hope whoever bought it leaves it alone and doesn't try to take it apart. I suspect a knowledgeable person bought it, so it's safe. IMHO, the price was cheap given the condition. Sorry I missed the auction.

[csikora]

I believe this auction was also for an Ivorine. It is a bit unusual that there be two show up within a 1-2 week time period. They really are nice looking pens.

[penpalace]

As others have posted certainly an Ivorine, and yes Chris the second in a couple of weeks. I watched them both, and probably would have bid on the yellow one had I of not been caught up at work. A nice piece at a fair price.

Pearce.

[John Danza]

I believe this auction was also for an Ivorine. It is a bit unusual that there be two show up within a 1-2 week time period. They really are nice looking pens.

Yep, that's an Ivorine also. Jeez, I need to be paying more attention. Interesting that they both went for roughly the same price and seem to be in about the same condition. I guess we're seeing an indication of market price for these.

[csikora]

I do like the look of the Ivorines, but haven't felt the need to locate one for my collection. I suspect that they would be far too fragile for general/daily use. The multicoloured (hand-painted) ones at the bottom of Tony's photo (and on Tony's website) are simply amazing.
Chris

[David Nishimura]

Interesting that they both went for roughly the same price and seem to be in about the same condition. I guess we're seeing an indication of market price for these.

What market? All that the auction results tell us is what the underbidder was willing to pay -- not what the winner bidder was willing to pay, let alone all the potential bidders/buyers who never saw the listings in the first place.

[david i]

Here's a nice one:

regards

d

[John Danza]

Interesting that they both went for roughly the same price and seem to be in about the same condition. I guess we're seeing an indication of market price for these.

What market? All that the auction results tell us is what the underbidder was willing to pay -- not what the winner bidder was willing to pay, let alone all the potential bidders/buyers who never saw the listings in the first place.

So how is that different from any other auction, or website sale for that matter? That's what defining a market is, seeing what a sale price is on an item. Here you have two very scarce pieces that sold for roughly the same amount. What the high bidder was prepared to pay is immaterial. The amount that was required for the purchase is what matters. So if one of these should show up on a pen website for sale at $1000 or more, we know the only reason to pay that amount is because you absolutely have to have one, even though you'll be overpaying relative to attaining one at auction.

[George]

Interesting that they both went for roughly the same price and seem to be in about the same condition. I guess we're seeing an indication of market price for these.

What market? All that the auction results tell us is what the underbidder was willing to pay -- not what the winner bidder was willing to pay, let alone all the potential bidders/buyers who never saw the listings in the first place.

So how is that different from any other auction, or website sale for that matter? That's what defining a market is, seeing what a sale price is on an item. Here you have two very scarce pieces that sold for roughly the same amount. What the high bidder was prepared to pay is immaterial. The amount that was required for the purchase is what matters. So if one of these should show up on a pen website for sale at $1000 or more, we know the only reason to pay that amount is because you absolutely have to have one, even though you'll be overpaying relative to attaining one at auction.

2 ivorines that come up within a month of each other can be considered a 7 standard deviation occurrence. It is a market aberration that should not be expected to occur again in the future. Also, just because they sold for roughly the same price doesn't mean that the next ivorine for sale for $600 or $1600 is overpriced, or that a potential buyer is "overpaying" for one. (To add my opinion on the rarity of these pens, the Yellow ivorine is, by orders of magnitude, a far better pen than the muddy green one. So, did the winner of the green overpay, the winner of the yellow underpay, did bot overpay, or did both underpay?)

Many pens sold on ebay, especially the rare and esoteric, trade in a highly inefficient market, where the skill and knowledge of a buyer allows him to have an edge over competition and allows him to buy pens at discounted prices.

Not all pens are seen by all potential players. As seen in this thread: "Aww man, I missed these auctions. I if saw this I would have bid $$$ on them" etc. How many people didn't see either ivorine? How many people saw them and had no idea what they were looking at? How many people saw the auctions, knew what they were, and didn't know the right amount to bid?


John D, what do you think a fair "market" price for these ivorines are? What did you think a fair "market" price was for an ivorine before these auctions sold on ebay?

Regards,
George

[George]

Just an afterthought of my post:

The amount that was required for the purchase is what matters.

So if a rare Parker/Waterman sterling repousse overlay sells for $200 in an ebay auction, the market spoke, I guess. If the same pen finds its way in the portfolio of a pen dealer with a price tag of $30k, I guess the buyer would be "overpaying" by nearly 30 grand. Such are the inner workings of an inefficient market...

Regards,
George

[David Nishimura]

And to further elaborate upon George's response:

The amount that was required for the purchase is what matters.

While it certainly matters to the buyer and the seller in that particular transaction, it matters much less to anyone interested in knowing what another example could be bought for, or sold for. In this regard, what the high bidder was willing to pay is entirely relevant.

So if one of these should show up on a pen website for sale at $1000 or more, we know the only reason to pay that amount is because you absolutely have to have one, even though you'll be overpaying relative to attaining one at auction.

Again, just because one sold on eBay at $500 doesn't mean you'll be able to buy the next one there for $500, or anywhere close to that, even with the same bidders participating.

Nor am I speaking just as a dealer. As a collector, I've bought items that I knew were bought on eBay for a small fraction of what I willingly paid. I knew they had slipped through and were bought for way under the money, and that my chances of getting another example under just those circumstances and without the winning bidder participating were vanishingly small.

Edited by David Nishimura, 10 November 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[John Danza]

John D, what do you think a fair "market" price for these ivorines are? What did you think a fair "market" price was for an ivorine before these auctions sold on ebay?

I have never had a firm number in mind, but I would have expected pens in this high level of condition to have gone for much more that this, perhaps hitting four figures.

So if a rare Parker/Waterman sterling repousse overlay sells for $200 in an ebay auction, the market spoke, I guess.

That's a mis-characterization of what I'm saying. But to use your analogy, if two separate Parker/Waterman sterling repousse pens each sold on ebay for $200 at roughly the same time and in roughly the same condition, then you're getting close. I guess it's possible to say that two phenomenal deals happened at the same time, but that would be quite a coincidence given the large number of pen buyers that watch ebay. There's certainly many times more pen buyers watching ebay than attend in-person auctions.

Let's also look at Parker Black Giants. Over the past few months on ebay, they seem to be struggling to sell at beyond the $800-$900 level. That's certainly a number that most interested collectors would expect a BG to sell for, but that seems to be the proper level now for this pen on ebay.

[Dennis Lively]

Yet another?

My link

[david i]

Yet another?

My link

Nope.

regards

-d

[Dennis Lively]

Ok what makes them different? Different models? Sizes? Educate me please.