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They're at it again over at the FPN..


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#121 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:25 PM

I've been a member at FPN a long while and a member here awhile as well. I was very disappointed by the premium account structure they adopted and the sale rules they added. I think what really got to me was the fact that they took the concept of a "tray" sale away from the non-paying users while also stating that the sales would still allow hobbyists to turn over their collection. The small tray sale is, at least as far as I can tell, the classic method for a veteran hobbyist to modify his collection. I think their changes would have been more reasonable had the allowed number of sales included the ability to post a small tray of, say, 6 pens below a certain, reasonable value. They'd have to set the numbers, but I'm sure some compromise could be reached on that.

I was also disappointed that when suggested, the "pro tray" post disappeared with the rest of the thread it was in, and a substitute post made in another thread was ignored. Even hobbyists don't generally sell pens in lots of "one or all only". The ability to declare a pen "too valuable" to sell in a non-paying account, without a well-established bar, is pretty arbitrary. There have to be better ways to assess a toll on true professionals without hitting the veteran hobbyist with a collection. Small tray sales are a staple of the hobby, whether it's at a show or online. The whole thing signals to me the approach is to press anyone who wants to sell anything to move into the paying area, which is a far cry from the original spirit of the board. I think it has a wealth of good information, if you know where to find it there, but is taking turns in the wrong direction.

Edited by Ray-Vigo, 04 May 2013 - 10:47 PM.


#122 AndyR

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:15 AM

This is all so convoluted and incestuous someone needs to draw a diagram...

I signed up to FPN and just thought it was a nice friendly place where people talked about pens, paper and inks in detail that family members and partners wouldn't tolerate. And then this seething underbelly reveals itself. A bubbling mire that rivals anything seen in the House of Commons!


To a newcomer to FPN, it must all be a bit of a mystery to see all this dirty washing strewn out over a couple of other pen boards!

My own experiences with the details of the FPN CS Forum date back to late 2007 so you can see this has all been going on for some time, while others have issues that go back much earlier. You can read about all the CS related problems in the pinned topic at the head of the FPB Europe forum - a topic originally started by me with a humerous intention rapidly turned into the place where several of those shafted by FPN mods and admins related their own particular experiences after raising their queries about CS. If you have followed the various more recent threads you will see that similar issues are widespread throughout FPN and seem to apply to anybody who dares to query any admin policy such as their method of charging for sales posts.

Despite the apparent complexity of the minutiae, all these issues seem to boil down to one thing - FPN is run by moderators and admins with short tempers, poor judgement, a love of secrecy and intrigue, a lack of respect for other people's views and, most importantly, a complete lack of people skills. As a result, many of those who have real knowledge about brand history, repair skills or whatever can no longer be bothered to post there. A few have come over to FPG or FPB but others I know just don't bother to get involved online at all.

I think I have seen it written elsewhere that FPN is the 'elevator music' of online pen discussion and this sums it up perfectly. There are no doubt thousands of FPN members who hold no strong opinions and will never fall foul of the admins - accordingly, they will be happy with their experience. Personally, I hate elevator music.......

Jon & Hugh (especially) despite their experiences have generously expressed the opinion that they hope FPN recovers from all this. I'm not so sure - though I have personally been affected less, and a long time ago, I obviously feel a very much greater sense of indignation. As I said above, I hate elevator music - to me, complete silence is preferable!

Andy

Edited by AndyR, 05 May 2013 - 08:17 AM.


#123 opus7600

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:12 PM

I think I have seen it written elsewhere that FPN is the 'elevator music' of online pen discussion and this sums it up perfectly. There are no doubt thousands of FPN members who hold no strong opinions and will never fall foul of the admins - accordingly, they will be happy with their experience. Personally, I hate elevator music.......

Jon & Hugh (especially) despite their experiences have generously expressed the opinion that they hope FPN recovers from all this. I'm not so sure - though I have personally been affected less, and a long time ago, I obviously feel a very much greater sense of indignation. As I said above, I hate elevator music - to me, complete silence is preferable!

Andy


Maybe. Or maybe it's useful to think of it as the light beer that serves as the gateway drug to the mainline speedball represented by this forum. I don't presume to think I belong here, yet, maybe ever. You guys are way too intense. But at least I can read the conversations and find some of the points interesting, thanks to the background I had gotten from reading lots of FPN. If this had been the only option when I was even more of a noob, I doubt I'd have bothered to stick around.

#124 david i

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:18 PM

Maybe. Or maybe it's useful to think of it as the light beer that serves as the gateway drug to the mainline speedball represented by this forum. I don't presume to think I belong here, yet, maybe ever. You guys are way too intense. But at least I can read the conversations and find some of the points interesting, thanks to the background I had gotten from reading lots of FPN. If this had been the only option when I was even more of a noob, I doubt I'd have bothered to stick around.


Hi,

Your last couple sentences certainly touch on concerns we harbor. In FPB's opening post and probably in the annual State of the Board posts, emphasis has been placed that the Advisors who actively and occasionally contribute are here to assist the growth of knowledge of collectable pendom. Indeed, not only do we not have a litmus test for knowledge to "qualify" to play here, but the most basic questions harbored about old pens are of real interest, because there is a good chance many other readers have similar questions. Yet, despite the 'old guard" put in place to make newer collectors comfortable, the effect for some seems to have been the opposite, to create a sense of trepidation about playing here, which amazes me, given I've never been hesitant to ask questions in any setting. I don't have an easy solution. We can profess at length that our goal is to embrace even the most basic questions, but if people are put off by depth and intensity of interest, then I am not quite sure how to solve the disconnect. I am open to suggestions ;)

regards

david
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#125 opus7600

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:42 PM

I don't imagine I know the answer for the question of making this place less intimidating, but I can say I sincerely doubt you *really* want that to happen. Having Brandon around has been super fun for all y'all, now that it's clear he's either unwilling or incapable of learning, you've got a little catnip mouse to bat around. But imagine 10 of them. Or 100. Or 77,000. Yes, not everyone will be as clueless as he is. But surely he is not too much more than one standard deviation below the mean.


No, enjoy the rarefied air here. I do, honestly, I do. But understand that there's some training required before you can breathe up here.

#126 david i

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

I don't imagine I know the answer for the question of making this place less intimidating, but I can say I sincerely doubt you *really* want that to happen. Having Brandon around has been super fun for all y'all, now that it's clear he's either unwilling or incapable of learning, you've got a little catnip mouse to bat around. But imagine 10 of them. Or 100. Or 77,000. Yes, not everyone will be as clueless as he is. But surely he is not too much more than one standard deviation below the mean.

No, enjoy the rarefied air here. I do, honestly, I do. But understand that there's some training required before you can breathe up here.


I hear you.

Still, I'm not sure your example represents the common situation. There are of course differences between "unseasoned" and "stubborn,etc" ;)

500 relatively new collectors likely would not be 500 clones of that situation...

And, I still harbor hopes the kid can learn...

regards

david
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#127 Marsilius

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:49 PM

Opus 7600, how can you suggest there is anyone or anything intimidating here? Posted ImageI think one interesting intangible for the idea of bridging the gap between serious players and the 77,000 or other "cats" sits somewhere in that idea of what is "collectible pendom." Somewhere else I would say I collect pens. Here I would consider myself a "user." You do not make the distinction, and it doesn't bother me, but there is possibly a fine line? I love old pens, and am fascinated by what I learn here. I am usually less concerned with whether my pen is collectible or has its original nib than whether it writes or draws well. I doubt I would post a photo of just any old Vacumatic here, just because I was excited to have gotten it and like its nib.
One answer to that perceived? gap will happen as a body of "users" builds an ongoing presence that might be less obviously focused on the concept of "collecting" with a capital C. Unless you don't want that . . . but I suspect you wouldn't a few more lightweights up in the rarified air here? If so, they may not all, or always, want to be Collectors. I'm off to play with my Duovac! Posted Image
Best wishes,Mars

#128 jkingrph

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:52 PM

It appears the FPN is finally up and running.
Regards


Jeff

#129 Rick Krantz

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

funny, I was a pretty regular seller on FPN, I was wondering on how the rule changes would affect my sales. I would post the same sale on FPN, FPB, FPC, and Pentrace. Seems I would get a fair volume of sales from FPN.

However, I was not asked for input on the rule changes as a seller, so I did not entirely agree upon them. matter of fact, I had to reset my view on my laptop just to read the membership level buy ins.

Well, I had three sales since, without posting to FPN, and to tell the truth, the sales are just the same. It has had zero affect on my sales, the same people that bought before are still buying.

I was really weighing the benefits on buying a membership over there, but can't since the board has been up and down for weeks now, and quite frankly, I cannot see a benefit on paying $100-$360 a year to do something I can do just as well without the complicated rules.

I guess if you mess with a good thing, and mess with it further, eventually the people just stop going, the park example is perfect.

Best!
RIck

#130 Ray-Vigo

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:34 PM

funny, I was a pretty regular seller on FPN, I was wondering on how the rule changes would affect my sales. I would post the same sale on FPN, FPB, FPC, and Pentrace. Seems I would get a fair volume of sales from FPN.

However, I was not asked for input on the rule changes as a seller, so I did not entirely agree upon them. matter of fact, I had to reset my view on my laptop just to read the membership level buy ins.

Well, I had three sales since, without posting to FPN, and to tell the truth, the sales are just the same. It has had zero affect on my sales, the same people that bought before are still buying.

I was really weighing the benefits on buying a membership over there, but can't since the board has been up and down for weeks now, and quite frankly, I cannot see a benefit on paying $100-$360 a year to do something I can do just as well without the complicated rules.

I guess if you mess with a good thing, and mess with it further, eventually the people just stop going, the park example is perfect.

Best!
RIck


Most of the half way knowledgeable people visit a couple sale venues. My last sale came through FP Classifieds. I don't think I've sold anything through FPN in awhile. As a long time member there and a casual seller, I agree that it wasn't nice having huge changes like that take place without being asked about it.

#131 Frank(Federalist Pens)

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:39 PM

+1 Rick!

I mentioned before that I have done more sales on ebay over the past year or so (since the first change), than I have done on any pen board! I do have a pile of pens that have yet to be posted, but they don't go bad!

This is still a hobby for me, and I cannot justify paying a fee either! I have only posted parts on the boards this year. If I reached my limit already, I have to find another option! (Time for a BOGO from me again soon, and it cannot even be posted over there!)

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#132 welch

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:37 AM

I think:

- FPB needs to be a place where a new pen user -- not just collector -- can ask questions. That's probably the most helpful feature of FPN

- I have accumulated pens, but it grieves me to have so many and to write with so few. Time to sell down to the oens I use every week. The worry: how many Skylines do I really need?

- Maybe FPB can match FPN's history section. How were pens designed? What did the factories look like? How did they make the nibs? What was an assembly like like? Did people move up in the comp any, or take their single skill to another company?

- Inks. Let Nathan Tardiff stew if someone give his ink a bad review. Talk as hoinestly as possible about inks old and new. I was told to be VERY CAREFUL with Skrip permanent inkks far back in the early '60s. Now It's a safe bet that if someone innocently asks which ink to sign a marriage license, they will hear the obligatory list of special-purpose Noodler's inks. including "forge-proof" ink as if...what????? How did people sign license in 1951?

- There ought to be more talk about British pens, and David has said he hopes that happens. Until then, it might help to have links to some of the brand histories: Burnham, Mabie-Todd. A link to the revived Onoto's history section. Another link to the Twyddle family stories...the picture of Arthur working at the Parker office gives a real sense of the place.. Someday, if a British pen master joins, he or she can fill in the skeleton.

- Sorry. I admit that I never looked at the CS forum, since I don't have one,

- a paper&ink sub forum. Should I buy the leuchterm 1917 or a Noteletts about the same size

- Some stories about olden tymes from the Browns and from FPH.

[sorry about my typing...it's late and I'm falling asleep]

Regards,

John

#133 AndyR

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:22 AM

I think

(in the kindest possible way) John needs to roam around the site a little more when he is a little less sleepy! I do think you are missing a lot.

While you and I and a few others agree that a British Pens forum would be what is needed to attract more lovers of British pens in a chicken and egg situation (and OK David, you don't need to chime in, we know your thoughts well!) I don't think you give full credit to those who keep the British flag flying in the Europe forum. There are links to the only Burnham and Summit websites pinned at the top of the Europe forum and within the forum there is also a link to Mike Bryan's Neptune site, though this hasn't been pinned for some reason. Paul, the owner of the Summit site posts here quite regularly, as does Deb who writes the interesting Goodwriters blog (mostly about British pens) and the late Akiva Gordon used to post about Burnham. I can tell you anything you want to know about the history and pens of Conway Stewart and a few other more obscure brands. Other experienced collectors chime in when they see a query that lies within their field of interest. So I think you'll find there is a greater repository of genuine knowledge of the British pen industry here than on any other pen discussion forum. I'm not sure who this nebulous 'British pen master' might be - I can only think of a few names that might fit that particular bill! Some time, I must relate the pithy opinions Steve Hull gave me regarding online discussion groups following his very brief foray into the FPN CS forum many years ago and other more recent posts on Onoto that have been drawn to his attention!

There is no heavy handed moderation here, so if you feel it appropriate to say Noodlers inks stink, or whatever, you'll be free to say it.

It is no secret that the focus of FPB has always been on vintage collecting and there is plenty of pen history here, it is just not collected in one place. I'm sure questions regarding the other topics you mention would all be perfectly welcome and addressed in a sensible and helpful manner - but they would all seem to squeeze in the Miscellaneous topics forum and so it is no surprise people with these queries visiting FPB for the first time would not be inspired to post here rather than at FPN for example. It is really the same chicken and egg situation as the British pens forum.

And in answer to your specific question - Leuchturm 1917 every time - I use nothing else!

Andy

#134 Beringsea

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

1367796895[/url]' post='24702']

1367793521[/url]' post='24697']
funny, I was a pretty regular seller on FPN, I was wondering on how the rule changes would affect my sales. I would post the same sale on FPN, FPB, FPC, and Pentrace. Seems I would get a fair volume of sales from FPN.

However, I was not asked for input on the rule changes as a seller, so I did not entirely agree upon them. matter of fact, I had to reset my view on my laptop just to read the membership level buy ins.

Well, I had three sales since, without posting to FPN, and to tell the truth, the sales are just the same. It has had zero affect on my sales, the same people that bought before are still buying.

I was really weighing the benefits on buying a membership over there, but can't since the board has been up and down for weeks now, and quite frankly, I cannot see a benefit on paying $100-$360 a year to do something I can do just as well without the complicated rules.

I guess if you mess with a good thing, and mess with it further, eventually the people just stop going, the park example is perfect.

Best!
RIck


Most of the half way knowledgeable people visit a couple sale venues. My last sale came through FP Classifieds. I don't think I've sold anything through FPN in awhile. As a long time member there and a casual seller, I agree that it wasn't nice having huge changes like that take place without being asked about it.


Seems nobody much likes the changes or the way they've been implemented.
I never put up an ad on FPN, but i have maybe ten starter/student/modern fps to sell....and now I may try fleabay instead.

#135 Euro Vintage

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

[/quote]

To a newcomer to FPN, it must all be a bit of a mystery to see all this dirty washing strewn out over a couple of other pen boards!

....... all these issues seem to boil down to one thing - FPN is run by moderators and admins with short tempers, poor judgement, a love of secrecy and intrigue, a lack of respect for other people's views and, most importantly, a complete lack of people skills.

I think I have seen it written elsewhere that FPN is the 'elevator music' of online pen discussion and this sums it up perfectly......
Andy
[/quote]

+1
Well put
"...YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO RAISE QUESTIONS....."
Those were the words written to me by a FPN moderator - in BOLD letters - in relation to my discussion of the Korean pen faker.
They obviously expect to have only the unquestioning obedient ones over there.

#136 Beringsea

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 03:56 PM

1368882975[/url]' post='25348']


To a newcomer to FPN, it must all be a bit of a mystery to see all this dirty washing strewn out over a couple of other pen boards!

....... all these issues seem to boil down to one thing - FPN is run by moderators and admins with short tempers, poor judgement, a love of secrecy and intrigue, a lack of respect for other people's views and, most importantly, a complete lack of people skills.

I think I have seen it written elsewhere that FPN is the 'elevator music' of online pen discussion and this sums it up perfectly......
Andy


+1
Well put
"...YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO RAISE QUESTIONS....."
Those were the words written to me by a FPN moderator - in BOLD letters - in relation to my discussion of the Korean pen faker.
They obviously expect to have only the unquestioning obedient ones over there.


Korean pen faker? :0
One thing I still appreciate about FPN (if that is permitted, lol) is the archive of ink reviews. I spent some happy time there yesterday comparing and contrasting inks I want, and those I already own.

#137 welch

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:29 AM

An odd one: someone at FPN is asking which on-line shops are "sponsors" of FPN, because, best I can tell, they want to give their business to a "sponsor". Does FPN have commercial sponsors? If so, doesn't that border on the unethical? (Nope...I've never looked at the Conway Stewart sub-topic, since I don't own one of the old C-S pens or a new pen from the company that uses that name.)

#138 David Nishimura

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:42 AM

While I understand the frustration felt with FPN's management, let's not jump the shark.
Commercial sponsors are entirely accepted in all sorts of other public organizations, so why not on a pen board?
Though I must say, the risk of conflicts of interest seems much less when the sponsors are retailers, as opposed to manufacturers.

#139 Hugh

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:53 AM

Of course sponsorship is an acceptable funding method and widely used. COI is avoided by full disclosure, in the case of the FPN it's not known if any sponsorship/donation/ or like from a party that could financially benefit occurs. Circumstantial evidence would suggest it has occurred in at least one instance ( yes...the CS forum..), if it hasn't it makes the antics of Mary Bouke and my dear friend Wim even more bizarre. It's not really an issue of sponsorship ( or whatever) it's an issue of disclosure and transparency, the notion that because "it's on the web" it's beyond the law isn't always correct, nor is the notion that one can breach human rights "because it's on the web" correct. If one wanted an example of "how not to run an internet forum" the FPN would be an excellent example.

Of course financial pressure does cause some things to occur that seem to defy logic, given the last few years have not been kind to many Wim may simply be a (financial) victim of the times and doing what he deems appropriate to try to ensure that the FPN continues. That doesn't excuse is abhorrent style of management best described as "North Korean".....

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley

#140 AndyR

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:28 PM

I don't think anyone could reasonably have objections to commercial sponsorship provided details of this are openly discussed and the sponsors don't have control over forum content. For example, if the XY Pen Company sponsors a forum but it then requires that people don't say bad things about its pens there, fair enough, but make sure all users know this before they participate rather than pressurising people backchannel or removing posts willy-nilly.

I have however recently seen a further instance of the sensitive moderation of the jobsworths over at FPN!

There has been a long running (though frequently banal) thread in what is now the First Stop forum featuring Henry Simpole and his pens. I do check into it occasionally as his friend and photographer Neal frequently shares top quality pictures of Henry's new work there. I have known Henry for many years, he is the nicest person you could wish to meet but, by his own admission, he is very naive in the ways of the online world and has barely a nodding acquaintance with the technology! As a result, many of his happy customers, friends and supporters have posted pictures of his work in that forum but Henry has never done so himself and his contribution to the thread is generally only to share details of the various commissioned projects he is working on and to give tantalising hints to the identities of the great and the good that now own examples of his pens! Since the new financial rules, the FPN powers that be have apparently now decided that this thread is effectively an advertising vehicle for Henry's pens, moved it to the Market Watch forum for the time being and have effectively 'encouraged' him into paying for a premium membership to use the Mall. Maybe Henry will gain a benefit from this, though his repair talents and his overlay pens were very well known throughout the world well before he had any involvement in FPN and I doubt a presence in the Mall will help his business in any way. However, Henry (being Henry) would be distraught if he thought he had broken any forum rules, so he may well be willing to pay up.

My point is that this is no different to what happens in the CS forum, or I suspect any other brand focus forum. Mary Burke puts details of new models on the CS Facebook page, or wherever, and other people (either at her behest, or independently) post pictures of them in the CS forum for discussion, hence CS get the free advertising. By extension, does this not mean that all brand focus forums featuring currently available products should also be moved in the same way - or is it just that Henry is an easy target and this is just another example of the double standards that exist over there?

Andy

Edited by AndyR, 03 June 2013 - 03:46 PM.





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