110 replies to this topic

[brando090]

The phrase is 'kill two BIRDS with one stone'.

Autocorrect doesn't always word, buy yes that is what I meant. Anything else about this pen that I don't know?

No "pen" has been discussed, rather a model number. We'd have to see an actual pen and find out what you know in order to figure out what you don't know.

regards

david

Can't we just speak in theory, and give me a little fountain pen quiz on Watermans which will find my IQ on what I know and don't know...

Edited by brando090, 15 April 2013 - 02:55 AM.

[JonSzanto]

Autocorrect doesn't always word, buy yes that is what I meant.

More autocorrect lulz! And not at your expense, Brandon, believe me. I find great humor in the way autocorrect changes our messages and meanings, in general, not just in your message. Nonetheless, I nearly spewed my beverage...

[brando090]

Autocorrect doesn't always word, buy yes that is what I meant.

More autocorrect lulz! And not at your expense, Brandon, believe me. I find great humor in the way autocorrect changes our messages and meanings, in general, not just in your message. Nonetheless, I nearly spewed my beverage...

Unbelievable Jon, this is ridiculous, and this will be double and triple checked for grammatical mistakes.

Edited by brando090, 15 April 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[JonSzanto]

¡ǝsɹoʍ ǝq plnoɔ ʇı 'ʎǝɥ

[BrianMcQueen]

Wow. I just found this thread, and I am amazed at how much misunderstanding my pen find has caused. So that we don’t keep dragging this conversation out and further confuse Brandon, allow me to summarize what has been said in a concise manner.


Brandon,

The pen I found is a 472 ½. The 4 stands for Sterling overlay, the 7 stands for screw-cap eyedropper, the 2 stands for a “2” size nib, and the ½ stands for a slender pen.

The pansy panel pattern is a fairly common pattern. The 72 ½ is a not-uncommon pen. However, a pansy panel 72 ½ is a very uncommon (maybe even rare) pen according to David Isaacson. I know that David has handled thousands and thousands more pens than I have in his years of collecting, and says he does not believe that he has ever seen one.

Rarity does not always coincide with value. Some pens are very rare, but undesirable. A pen could potentially be one of only a hundred known and still only be worth 10 dollars. However, there were millions of black Aerometric Parker 51s made, and it’s getting hard to find those for less than 50 dollars from a retail seller.



Let me help you out a little bit here, Brandon. I am going to ask some serious questions below because I honestly don’t know the answers, and there are people here with good experience who I trust and consider friends. I would like to understand better what makes this particular pen uncommon. Here is one good example o how to learn from the knowledgeable people on this board:

What is it about the 472 ½ I found that makes it so uncommon? Are sterling overlays in general (any pattern) very uncommon on the 7x series pens, or is it the pansy panel pattern that sets this pen apart?

Edited by BrianMcQueen, 15 April 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[JonSzanto]

Great post, Brian. You've dialed it back to a concrete and collegial educational place, well done.

[brando090]

Wow. I just found this thread, and I am amazed at how much misunderstanding my pen find has caused. So that we don’t keep dragging this conversation out and further confuse Brandon, allow me to summarize what has been said in a concise manner.


Brandon,

The pen I found is a 472 ½. The 4 stands for Sterling overlay, the 7 stands for screw-cap eyedropper, the 2 stands for a “2” size nib, and the ½ stands for a slender pen.

The pansy panel pattern is a fairly common pattern. The 72 ½ is a not-uncommon pen. However, a pansy panel 72 ½ is a very uncommon (maybe even rare) pen according to David Isaacson. I know that David has handled thousands and thousands more pens than I have in his years of collecting, and says he does not believe that he has ever seen one.

Rarity does not always coincide with value. Some pens are very rare, but undesirable. A pen could potentially be one of only a hundred known and still only be worth 10 dollars. However, there were millions of black Aerometric Parker 51s made, and it’s getting hard to find those for less than 50 dollars from a retail seller.



Let me help you out a little bit here, Brandon. I am going to ask some serious questions below because I honestly don’t know the answers, and there are people here with good experience who I trust and consider friends. I would like to understand better what makes this particular pen uncommon. Here is one good example o how to learn from the knowledgeable people on this board:

What is it about the 472 ½ I found that makes it so uncommon? Are sterling overlays in general (any pattern) very uncommon on the 7x series pens, or is it the pansy panel pattern that sets this pen apart?

Brian,

I really can't tell you how much I appreciate this post. You summarized all the facts up, and showed me how to type a very clear, precise question. I'll be sure to follow your format, you have my word on that. Nice pen none the less.

[BrianMcQueen]

What is it about the 472 ½ I found that makes it so uncommon? Are sterling overlays in general (any pattern) very uncommon on the 7x series pens, or is it the pansy panel pattern that sets this pen apart?

Honestly, I would like to know the answer to these questions. Can anyone tell me or will I have to re-post in the Waterman forum?

[david i]

What is it about the 472 ½ I found that makes it so uncommon? Are sterling overlays in general (any pattern) very uncommon on the 7x series pens, or is it the pansy panel pattern that sets this pen apart?

Honestly, I would like to know the answer to these questions. Can anyone tell me or will I have to re-post in the Waterman forum?

Hi Brian,

Suspect your signal was lost in the noise of this thread

While I'm not quite as sharp on details of 1910's-1920's as some others who play here, here is my view...

7x pens are at least relatively uncommon. By 1917, when I believe the major revamp of Waterman's numbering system occurred (the 1xPSF lever filler became the 5x, the 1xPOC became the 7x, the1xS safety became the 4x), Waterman had lever-fill (screw cap, though I learned here at FPB this month that some rare lever-fill slip cap pens also exist) and eye-dropper fill (safety, conventional screw cap, and slip cap).

The 7x pens of course were the eye droppers with screw cap. They looked at first peek quite like the 5x lever fillers (52, 56, etc), but lacked the lever.

My speculation (not unreasonable) is that with the surge in self-fillers, the screw-cap eyedroppers were not a hot cluster. Certainly while the 52 might today be the most common Waterman from the era, 72 shows up but occasionally. Larger 7x pens are more scarce still, though I own a 76 and though a Ripple 78 was claimed by Mike Dvoretz as part of the Gang of Five pen purchase at Ohio November 2012.

Now, recognizing I have not closely examined every one of the multitudes of apparent overlay 5x pens I've seen at pen shows (eg. 452, a silver overly 5x pen with #2 nib) to make sure the pen wasn't lacking a lever (thus making it a 472), I note that I have been aware of seeing really very few Sterling 7x pens. I've never seen (or never realized I've seen) a 47x in Pansy. Obviously, someone with stronger Waterman focus (David Nishimura, Bob Novak, Gary Lehrer) might have seen such. But, still, these are very scarce.

How many Sterling pens were made at far higher retail cost than plain black HR, back in the day? Plain pens are far more common today, and probably more of the plain pens were tossed over the years (people were more likely, I assert, to keep silver 'jewelry' pens over the years than old black pens), meaning the plain pens were reeaaaallllly more common at time of issue. This makes sense. How many bics are sold today vs MB 149

For someone to invest in a sterling overlay on what apparently was already a far less popular pen (7x eye dropper vs 5x lever filler), must have been an uncommon occurrence.

Thus, the pens today are scarce.

regards

david

[BrianMcQueen]

Thanks for the great (and fast) reply, David. It seems like it's just one uncommon occurrence piling upon the last to make the pen in question pretty scarce. I had just learned of Waterman's 7x series this year (I really need to do some more reading of the PCA archives) and have never seen a 47x except for this one which I purchased. Of course, me saying I haven't seen an example of a particular pen does not carry the same weight as you making the same statement does. I'll have to send a PM to David N. and have him peek in at my original post.

[david i]

Feel free to quote my last response here in your original thread. No doubt David can tweak the answer with his own views.

regards

d