66 replies to this topic

[FarmBoy]

You need to learn about pens before you can teach others about them.

In another thread I asked what could be learned from a set of pens showing steps in the manufacturing process. Now that you have had a chance to think about them (you may want additional photos showing key details-I certainly do) teach me. Let's start with the raw material and what must have been the first step in the process.

[PatMorgan]

Hopefully Brandon, none of us here (including self) are helping to create a better con man.

Time will tell.

This hurts that you'd say this.

And yet it has been said here before on this board.

[JonSzanto]

Hopefully Brandon, none of us here (including self) are helping to create a better con man.

Time will tell.

This hurts that you'd say this.

And yet it has been said here before on this board.

If that is the case, then it needn't have been said a second time. After such an apparently contrite response to you, Pat, I'd expect better from an elder.

From your post the other day, I've only got you by about 4 years, but if I have to put you over my knee, I will! Seriously, let us not hammer a person too much. One needs to know when to let up and let some of the lessons sink in. Whether that happens, who knows, but we shall see.

[PatMorgan]

Hopefully Brandon, none of us here (including self) are helping to create a better con man.

Time will tell.

This hurts that you'd say this.

And yet it has been said here before on this board.

If that is the case, then it needn't have been said a second time. After such an apparently contrite response to you, Pat, I'd expect better from an elder.

From your post the other day, I've only got you by about 4 years, but if I have to put you over my knee, I will! Seriously, let us not hammer a person too much. One needs to know when to let up and let some of the lessons sink in. Whether that happens, who knows, but we shall see.

Jon, you are right.

Edited by PatMorgan, 07 May 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[PatMorgan]

Hopefully Brandon, none of us here (including self) are helping to create a better con man.

Time will tell.

This hurts that you'd say this.

Jon brought it to my attention that I was out of line. After looking at my statement, he was right, I was out of line.

My statement hurt you. You told me I hurt you and it was my responsibility to step back and not hurt you further. I did not do that and as an elder as Jon stated it is my responsibility to step back.

For that I apologize to you. It was wrong. I was wrong. Jon is right that you need time to let the lessons sink in. Okay let the lessons sink in and let time prove that indeed things are different for the better.

And I apologize to the board for stepping out of line as an elder.

[JonSzanto]

Last I noticed this board was still populated to a 100% degree by humans. Humans aren't infallible, so no apologies about things like this, Pat. You showed your class with your response.

I only hope, and assume, that people will call *me* out when I make my own screw-ups. It's the least I can ask of you.

[Marsilius]

If Pat keeps setting such a good example, I might have to start treating my own kids better. Yikes!
Seriously, it's good to know caring and thoughtful people on FPB.

[brando090]

You need to learn about pens before you can teach others about them.

In another thread I asked what could be learned from a set of pens showing steps in the manufacturing process. Now that you have had a chance to think about them (you may want additional photos showing key details-I certainly do) teach me. Let's start with the raw material and what must have been the first step in the process.

Well, the first step is to acquire whatever material the pen turner would like to use. In this case, a moss agate plastic. After spinning it to specs, they than put the holed in it where the sac, and lever will go. They than cut into a carrel and cap, and start degrading (correct word?) the tops and end of barrel to have stepped pattern. I can speculate that next (pictures aren't close enough to show), the cap band cutout and lever filler cutout are placed, and once in place everything is attached.

[FarmBoy]

You need to learn about pens before you can teach others about them.

In another thread I asked what could be learned from a set of pens showing steps in the manufacturing process. Now that you have had a chance to think about them (you may want additional photos showing key details-I certainly do) teach me. Let's start with the raw material and what must have been the first step in the process.

Well, the first step is to acquire whatever material the pen turner would like to use. In this case, a moss agate plastic. After spinning it to specs, they than put the holed in it where the sac, and lever will go. They than cut into a carrel and cap, and start degrading (correct word?) the tops and end of barrel to have stepped pattern. I can speculate that next (pictures aren't close enough to show), the cap band cutout and lever filler cutout are placed, and once in place everything is attached.

Good starting point. Lets look closely at the material first. What appear to be two pieces of rod stock are found in the two left-most slots. Some pens are made from rod stock and some from tube stock. We need a better picture from David to know for sure what the material form is though suspect it is rod stock that must be bored out to form both the barrel and cap. I also suspect that there are two sizes of rod stock, again one for the cap and the other for the barrel. The third and fourth items seem to be caps in varying stages of production. The fifth item looks to be a barrel at some early stage of fabrication. Lets start with the material choice and establish what we are starting with before moving to far into the manufacturing steps.

Q1: Why would I say "I suspect it is rod stock that must be bored out"?
Q2: We might also ask why choose rod over tube?
Q3: Does one form of raw material have advantages over the other?
Q4: Is the fabrication process of the cap/barrel the same for both rod and tube or do they involve different manufacturing steps?
Q5: How might tube stock be made? How many can we come up with? (Drilling a bore down the center of a rod is one way but not what I'm looking for.)
Q6: Do some materials lend themselves to being produced in one form (rod vs. tube) preferentially?
Q7: Knowing what the material is helps. Though obvious to most veteran collectors, we should also identify what material Waterman used for this pen.

Pop your answers in to the questions. I don't necessarily know the answers either so don't be discouraged. I am merely asking the questions I asked myself when I looked at the picture just now as I wrote this. It does help that I have an example of this pen at home and that I have experience machining parts though it is not necessary.

You might ask why is this important and that would be a fair question. For what it is worth, I have had an number of intense discussions over this very topic--how did XXXX actually manufacture the YYYY model pen. Knowing or having insights into how a pen was produced can give one an advantage as a collector or repairer.

Others are free to play if they wish. Feel free to answer and ask questions. This should be a fun exercise. I'll pop back in when I can. I'm sure it will get more interesting as we start putting the material in the screw lathe and turning our virtual pen.

[George]

Original post:

My first ever Vacumatic is on its way. Woops, did I forget to mention I bought 3? Oh yea, and three pencils too. Sorry, but no gold bands. But anyway, from what I've gathered the Maximas are the ones with the blue diamond clip models with DJ's. Is this true? What would the same pen be called without the extra jewel?

You bought these pens at an estate sale? Really?

I didn't buy them at an auction, I actually went to an estate sale and there were several. I have them in a trade, so they are being held onto for that particular reason.

And I quote:

Was it this auction, by any chance? If this is your auction: I thought you've bough from ebay before. Why does it show the winning bidder, then, as a new registered user?

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

Regards,
George

Brandon, why are you lying again? It seems as if the winner of the Vacumatic lot has a penchant for European silver overlays, just like you do! Word on the street is that you don't pay for your auctions.

See here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=151026402462

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=281090476109

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=300901408040

Edited by George, 08 May 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[brando090]

You need to learn about pens before you can teach others about them.

In another thread I asked what could be learned from a set of pens showing steps in the manufacturing process. Now that you have had a chance to think about them (you may want additional photos showing key details-I certainly do) teach me. Let's start with the raw material and what must have been the first step in the process.

Well, the first step is to acquire whatever material the pen turner would like to use. In this case, a moss agate plastic. After spinning it to specs, they than put the holed in it where the sac, and lever will go. They than cut into a carrel and cap, and start degrading (correct word?) the tops and end of barrel to have stepped pattern. I can speculate that next (pictures aren't close enough to show), the cap band cutout and lever filler cutout are placed, and once in place everything is attached.

Good starting point. Lets look closely at the material first. What appear to be two pieces of rod stock are found in the two left-most slots. Some pens are made from rod stock and some from tube stock. We need a better picture from David to know for sure what the material form is though suspect it is rod stock that must be bored out to form both the barrel and cap. I also suspect that there are two sizes of rod stock, again one for the cap and the other for the barrel. The third and fourth items seem to be caps in varying stages of production. The fifth item looks to be a barrel at some early stage of fabrication. Lets start with the material choice and establish what we are starting with before moving to far into the manufacturing steps.

Q1: Why would I say "I suspect it is rod stock that must be bored out"?
Q2: We might also ask why choose rod over tube?
Q3: Does one form of raw material have advantages over the other?
Q4: Is the fabrication process of the cap/barrel the same for both rod and tube or do they involve different manufacturing steps?
Q5: How might tube stock be made? How many can we come up with? (Drilling a bore down the center of a rod is one way but not what I'm looking for.)
Q6: Do some materials lend themselves to being produced in one form (rod vs. tube) preferentially?
Q7: Knowing what the material is helps. Though obvious to most veteran collectors, we should also identify what material Waterman used for this pen.

Pop your answers in to the questions. I don't necessarily know the answers either so don't be discouraged. I am merely asking the questions I asked myself when I looked at the picture just now as I wrote this. It does help that I have an example of this pen at home and that I have experience machining parts though it is not necessary.

You might ask why is this important and that would be a fair question. For what it is worth, I have had an number of intense discussions over this very topic--how did XXXX actually manufacture the YYYY model pen. Knowing or having insights into how a pen was produced can give one an advantage as a collector or repairer.

Others are free to play if they wish. Feel free to answer and ask questions. This should be a fun exercise. I'll pop back in when I can. I'm sure it will get more interesting as we start putting the material in the screw lathe and turning our virtual pen.

Q1. It may be rod stock because of the tppe of material, and the thickness of the material...

Q2. Rod stock may be better because you have better control of the final outcome of the product...

Q3. Some raw materials are more prone to breaking and cracking overtime, so some may choose one over the pother.

Q4. I believe rod stock may take longer, and you have more freedom to create what you'd like vs. A tube material where some of the process is done, and it'll take a shorter time.

Q5. Tube stock, besides drilling, could also be poured into a mold where'd a specified sized hole is in place.

Q6. I would say yes... because some materials will crack if stretched too thin (ie. tube stock) vs. regular stock has unlimited uses in any material. Also i imagine that some stock is re-engineered to be stronger.

Q7. Moss agate was used.

I appreciate this quiz, its truly helping me learn, and verifying with others what is right and wrong.

[Inkysloth]

1. Is it possible that rod stock may have more consistent material structure leading to reduced internal stresses & lower likelihood of breakage?

5. Tube stock could also be made as a flat sheet & wrapped around a core.

[Inkysloth]

5. Rod stock can be extruded. I'm trying to see in my brain how tube stock could be, too, but I'm struggling as there's no way I can see to hold the central circle of the extrusion pattern in place.

Also, I wonder if tube stock risks collapsing in on itself as it extrudes.

Tubes can be drawn from a flat disc, but this is something I'd assiciate with metal barrels & caps (see the Parker 25 for an example) rather than celluloid pens.

Celluloid can be drawn - that's how ping pong balls are made - but I suspect the length & thickness of a pen barrel make this an unsuitable method.

[FarmBoy]

I have a few minutes to catch up so lets push the thought process along since there are a few answers. I'll answer my own questions but again, I'm just thinking off the top of my head, others should join in.

Q1: Why would I say "I suspect it is rod stock that must be bored out"?

If one looks at the cap, the end detail is continuous. If tube stock were used, there would be need to be a plug to close the top and this is not apparent.

Q2: We might also ask why choose rod over tube?
Q3: Does one form of raw material have advantages over the other?

These are really the same question. Some of the differences in machining are obvious but less obvious may be the differences in the material itself. Tube stock would cure much faster than would a solid rod of the same dimension. American Art Plastics discusses manufacure with respect to cure times but a rod (and tube) will move and change shape if it is not properly cured. Solid rod was likely more expensive as a material since raw stock was likely sold by the pound. With tube one does risk the material slumping out of round where as solid stock tends to twist or bend. I have several pieces of vintage tube (likely Conway Stewart) and it is noticeably out of round though it is thick enough to turn back to round for making a pen. I also have vintage rod that is noticeably warped, again large enough to resolve if making a pen. Much of the celluloid would have been poured and cured in slab form then cut into square stock and rounded on a center-less grinder. Several of us have discussed the likely hood of crudely machining or shaping barrels and caps then allowing them to cure followed by final machining steps.

Q4: Is the fabrication process of the cap/barrel the same for both rod and tube or do they involve different manufacturing steps?

Obviously if one starts with tube the process is different in that one must first bore the rod to begin fabrication. Also when using a tube, the ends must be somehow plugged. Plugging can be done by heat forming the end or inserting and welding in place a plug with the plug not necessarily being the same material.

Q5: How might tube stock be made? How many can we come up with? (Drilling a bore down the center of a rod is one way but not what I'm looking for.)

Most celluloid was made as sheets or slabs. Slabs were often stacks of sheets solvent welded and cured as a slab. We know that celluloid sheet was spiral wrapped around a mandrel as well as rolled on a mandrel. Wrapping producing the spiral joint and rolling a linear joint. It is possible to extrude tube stock but I don't know that this was done extensively with celluloid.


Q6: Do some materials lend themselves to being produced in one form (rod vs. tube) preferentially?

Yes. Though I don't have enough time to details my thoughts here, there are others that play with producing raw acetate and other fun materials suitable for pen productions that perhaps will join in.

Q7: Knowing what the material is helps. Though obvious to most veteran collectors, we should also identify what material Waterman used for this pen.

I was looking for celluloid.

When I have time I'll come back and we can talk about how one may manufacture 1000s of pens a day. In particular what steps along the way we see from the display of Waterman pieces. Do post any observations and comments. Again, I'm not an expert, rather I too am in the amateur hack newbie crowd...

[George]

So Brandon, did you ever receive the 3 Vacumatics and 3 Vacumatic pencils that you bought from the estate sale?

[brando090]

So Brandon, did you ever receive the 3 Vacumatics and 3 Vacumatic pencils that you bought from the estate sale?

George,

When you go to an estate sale, you go find whatever your looking for, pay, and leave. So the answer to your question is yes. Along with the Parkers pens, I added some second and third tier pens to the lot and I paid $120 for everything. I also bought some first edition books,etc. The chase is much more enjoyable than the selling part. Both have there positive and negative outcomes.

Edited by brando090, 14 May 2013 - 03:14 AM.

[George]

George,

When you go to an estate sale, you go find whatever your looking for, pay, and leave. So the answer to your question is yes. Along with the Parkers pens, I added some second and third tier pens to the lot and I paid $120 for everything. I also bought some first edition books,etc. The chase is much more enjoyable than the selling part. Both have there positive and negative outcomes.

But I thought they were in some sort of trade limbo? You said it yourself:

I didn't buy them at an auction, I actually went to an estate sale and there were several. I have them in a trade, so they are being held onto for that particular reason.

Are these the 3 vacumatic pens and 3 pencils that you originally talked about in the following ebay listing? Did you really buy the pens at an estate sale?

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

Regards,
George

[Old Griz]

So Brandon, did you ever receive the 3 Vacumatics and 3 Vacumatic pencils that you bought from the estate sale?

George,

When you go to an estate sale, you go find whatever your looking for, pay, and leave. So the answer to your question is yes. Along with the Parkers pens, I added some second and third tier pens to the lot and I paid $120 for everything. I also bought some first edition books,etc. The chase is much more enjoyable than the selling part. Both have there positive and negative outcomes.

Good then you can post pictures of your purchase/trade or whatever it was.....
You know what they say on the boards.... "Without pictures it didn't exist"

[brando090]

George,

When you go to an estate sale, you go find whatever your looking for, pay, and leave. So the answer to your question is yes. Along with the Parkers pens, I added some second and third tier pens to the lot and I paid $120 for everything. I also bought some first edition books,etc. The chase is much more enjoyable than the selling part. Both have there positive and negative outcomes.

But I thought they were in some sort of trade limbo? You said it yourself:

I didn't buy them at an auction, I actually went to an estate sale and there were several. I have them in a trade, so they are being held onto for that particular reason.

Are these the 3 vacumatic pens and 3 pencils that you originally talked about in the following ebay listing? Did you really buy the pens at an estate sale?

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

Regards,
George

George,

Nice lot of vacs, did you buy them? As I've said before, I'm no longer on ebay, and I no longer purchase items from da bay. Good deal it looks to be. And yes, I have some of the pens put away for a trade.

Edited by brando090, 14 May 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[david i]

George,

Nice lot of vacs, did you buy them? As I've said before, I'm no longer on what, and I don't buy on there. Good deal it looks to be. And yes, I have some of the pensut away for a trade.

English, Brandon. Try writing in English...

regards

d