34 replies to this topic

[Josephine]

Posted this over at FPGeeks:


So my last batch of pens for the year included a grab off ebay of a cheap Pelikan tortoise with an interesting IB nib. I really grabbed it for the nib, but since it was also a tortoise, score!

Figured it was a dupe of my 400 tortoise from Rick so I'd just put a nib I didn't like in it (like my 50s EF nib, too fine) and resell it. But here's the thing, I think it is SLIGHTLY different. Wondering if anyone can pin down the variation it might be?

HARD to get pics of the details so bear with me, I may need to break out the light box and real camera but that's a lot of time and trouble. :\

1st pic: The bindes. I know these can vary but this is HUGE. The closest pen is the 50's 400 I got from Rick. Honey colored, lots of red, classic for pens of that era that I've seen online. The new pen is behind it. The bind frankly looks much closer to the new 800 binde. Much darker brown, less red, a some grey highlights just a very different animal.

Untitled by JoAndRoses, on Flickr

Caps:
Hard to see. On the new pen the birds are outlined in yellow. Rick's 400 they are NOT. The engraving lines on Rick's are much finer. And there are TWO chick beaks on Rick's 400. Only 1 on the new 400.

Untitled by JoAndRoses, on Flickr

This is really obscure and maybe just a trick of my eyes? But the new Pelikan's clip seems more pointed at the end than Rick's 400's clip.

Untitled by JoAndRoses, on Flickr

Finally the nibs. I realize Pelikan nibs travel and so the nib may mean nothing but this is an odd nib and hard as heck to see in any pic I've managed to take. Rick's 50's nib is the classic with two triangular arrow lines, round Pelikan logo, like this one:


And the NEW pen has a nib like this one:
(though and IB)

If it had a gold band on the filler knob I'd say it was an M400. Is this just a very late 400? Or just random variations?

Edited by Josephine, 18 May 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[Rick Propas]

Jo, hard to tell from the images, but I'm almost guessing that what you have is a a modern M400 from the 1980s mated to a vintage nib. The nib, by the way is from the 1950-54 pens, which used the old style nibs of the 1930s. It looks to me like a medium, as some of those were more stubbed than modern nibs.

But again, this is just a guess. To be sure, look at the bottom of the barrel, at the filler and see if it is ribbed internally, and look inside the bore of the cap at the caplip to see if it is plastic (M400) or has the metal liner of the 400.

[Josephine]

Rick, sorry the pictures are NOT of the nibs in question but are stock images that LOOK like (IE same inscriptions).

The new nib is definitely marked IB. Could it be from the reissued 101N, my nib matches the nibs.com picture of the reissued 101N nib exactly (except theirs isn't an IB size).

WHY someone would swap a limited edition nib into this body I do not get.

OK so at the bottom of hte barrel if I shine a light into it there looks to be a "stack" of thin coins. Would that be what you mean by ribbed? Shining light into the 50's 400 from you does NOT reveal this regular "stack".

Also: on the new pen at the lip it is JUST the plastic of the cap, light goes straight through. Your 400 there is indeed metal lining.

So does that make this an M400 (80s?) If so, YAY! I didn't have an M400 and have had a horrible time tracking one down.

[entertainment]

If this were an M400 from the 1980s, what sort of nib would it have originally had? I have noticed that 1950s logo nibs have the pairs of lines that roughly parallel the curve of the outer edge of the tines and terminate at the slit as on this one:



But I have also seen very similar nibs where the lines stop short of the slit and I have wondered if these were the nibs from the 1980s. There is no image of this type on the Ruettinger website, but I have seen them on pens for sale on ebay. Does anyone know when this type of nib is from?

John

Edited by entertainment, 18 May 2013 - 09:53 PM.

[entertainment]

double post

Edited by entertainment, 18 May 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[piscov]

Hi Josephine,

Judging by the color and spacing of the lines in the bind in the first pictures, and the clips in the 3rd one I would say Rick is correct in his assumption. You got a 80'ies Pelikan M400 with a Pelikan 100N or first 400 model nib.

If you swap the nib from your newest pen in to the old one you will get a fully correct Pelikan 400. In my opinion you now have 2 pens that are not historically correct.

1) Your oldest Pelikan has a cap with no Pelikan 400 written in the cap ring. To be correct it cannot have the nib with the chevron lines and Pelikan logo, but should have a nib like the one you just got now.
2) your newest Pelikan currently has the wrong nib. ) how is the feed? Ebonite or plastic??

By swapping nibs ( you need to have a ebonite feed) you will have a historically correct Pelikan 400 first model.

Hope it helps

BR

Vasco

Edited by piscov, 18 May 2013 - 10:48 PM.

[Josephine]

Thanks Vasco, since they are Pelikans and I have about 6 more nibs than pens my pens RARELY have the "right" nib in them. When I bought hte 400 from Rick I requested that nib because it was OBB. ;-)

I thought all the M400s had a gold band on the piston knob? Sounds like that isn't the case then?

[Josephine]

I'm not great at telling if the feed is plastic or not. LOOKS identical to the feeds in my other 1950s or earlier nibs.

The for sure 400 has an ebonite feed and has been inked for weeks (it's a favorite) so not sure if comparing the two is fair. The new pen has been inked for just a couple hours but it LOOKS less porous, less like hte ink is absorbed and more like it is sitting on the feed.

What's a good test to be sure?

[piscov]

If this were an M400 from the 1980s, what sort of nib would it have originally had? I have noticed that 1950s logo nibs have the pairs of lines that roughly parallel the curve of the outer edge of the tines and terminate at the slit as on this one:But I have also seen very similar nibs where the lines stop short of the slit and I have wondered if these were the nibs from the 1980s. There is no image of this type on the Ruettinger website, but I have seen them on pens for sale on ebay. Does anyone know when this type of nib is from?

John

This nib (pairs of lines that roughly parallel the curve of the outer edge of the tines and terminate at the slit as on this one) is from a Pelikan from 1954 to 1965 according to page 79 of the Pelikan Schreibgerate from mr. Dittmer and Mr. Lehmann

From 1950 to 1954 they used the same nib as the Pelikan 100N ( the one Joshefine got in the new pen)

The one with the chevron lines that end short of the central slit are from the 80'ies

BR

Vasco.

Edited by piscov, 18 May 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[piscov]

I'm not great at telling if the feed is plastic or not. LOOKS identical to the feeds in my other 1950s or earlier nibs.

The for sure 400 has an ebonite feed and has been inked for weeks (it's a favorite) so not sure if comparing the two is fair. The new pen has been inked for just a couple hours but it LOOKS less porous, less like hte ink is absorbed and more like it is sitting on the feed.

What's a good test to be sure?

If the feed fins are parallel ( total of 4 fins) to the length of the pen they are made of ebonite and from the 50'ies. If they are perpendicular and a lot of them its a modern plastic feed from the 80íes.

My interest in pens stops in 1960, so I am not sure if during the 80'ies Pelikan introduced the rear knob rings or not, but at least at the beginning the M400 from the 80'ies did not had the rear rings...

Edited by piscov, 18 May 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Josephine]

BOTH nibs have feeds that are identical. For fins that run the full length of the feed in the same direction as the length of the pen.

AHAH! I went and did some image searching. The reissued 101N nibs have plastic feeds with horizontal fins. So this is indeed an ebonite feed, and an old one.

So that makes this nib what age then? Is it from an original 100/101???

[piscov]

BOTH nibs have feeds that are identical. For fins that run the full length of the feed in the same direction as the length of the pen.

AHAH! I went and did some image searching. The reissued 101N nibs have plastic feeds with horizontal fins. So this is indeed an ebonite feed, and an old one.

So that makes this nib what age then? Is it from an original 100/101???

The nib can be from 1948 to 1954... it could have been originally from a late Pelikan 100N or a early Pelikan 400.

Edited by piscov, 18 May 2013 - 10:49 PM.

[Josephine]

Thanks Piscov!

[Jos]

I thought all the M400s had a gold band on the piston knob? Sounds like that isn't the case then?

Hi,
I have an early 1980s M400 (green striated) that does not have a gold band on the piston knob. This pen also has the 'old style circle logo' nib. I am not sure whether this nib is original to this pen but if it is, your M400 might have the correct nib after all.
Can you check the markings on the cap band of your new Pelikan (the dark brown one). An imprint that says "PELIKAN W. -GERMANY" is typical for a 1980s (1982-1997?) M400 and is never found on the Pelikan 400, 400n or 400NN of the 1950-60s.
Hope this helps.

Edited by Jos, 22 May 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Christof Z]

1368913844[/url]' post='25393']
But I have also seen very similar nibs where the lines stop short of the slit and I have wondered if these were the nibs from the 1980s. There is no image of this type on the Ruettinger website, but I have seen them on pens for sale on ebay. Does anyone know when this type of nib is from?

John

1960's and 1980's. The only difference is the letter wich indicates the nib size. On 1980's nibs, it's cursive on 1960's nib not.
Christof

[entertainment]

Do these diagrams accurately reflect the three variations of the logo nib?:



I would call the 1980s lettering "ITALIC."

John

Edited by entertainment, 21 May 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Christof Z]

1369174933[/url]' post='25520']
Do these diagrams accurately reflect the three variations of the logo nib?:



I would call the 1980s lettering "ITALIC."

John

Well done. Good sketch!
You should ad the 1950-1954 nib, then it would be complete.
Christof

Edited by Christof Z, 22 May 2013 - 04:07 AM.

[piscov]

Great job John, thanks!!! This is very helpful. Please do as Christof said and include the 1950-1954 nib. It´s the last picture in the first post.

Vasco

[entertainment]

Here is the complete set, drawn with a Pelikan (as was the first version).:



I had to redraw because I crumpled up the first version.

I was inspired to make this drawing by your sketches, Christof, though I discovered my drawing skills are a little rusty.

John

Edited by entertainment, 22 May 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[piscov]

Great sketch John. Thanks!

Here is a picture I just made to show the same: