15 replies to this topic

[david i]

A clean WWII-era Sheaffer Triumph (after a proper plunger-fill restoration) can retail $175-225 or so, though buying raw pens sight unseen poses risks (Not all pens survive restoration. Condition can be tricky. Etc).

This raw Golden Brown set pulled nice bucks $100+

Was the buyer a dumgai? Or... not...?

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2047675.l2557

regards

David

[JonSzanto]

Solid gold bands, eh? At first I thought it was identical to the pen I picked up a couple months ago, but a different band style and that "14k" designation. I always love these a lot more if they aren't already monogrammed, but it certainly looks like a good catch. Then again, what do I know?

[wekiva98]

I think the buyer did fine. I have a couple of black Triumphs with 14K bands, but I can't remember the last time I saw one in striped celluloid. I don't like monograms/engravings generally, but this one appears to be well done, and the set overall looks as though it was not used much. A plunger rehab and a ligjht polish should make this one just about good as new. I'm not at all surprised to see several people jumping for it.

[david i]

I think the buyer did fine. ... SNIP

I have it on pretty good authority that he is happy about the purchase

Yep, Autograph (solid gold trim) War-Era Triumphs tend to be black. Having found my first brown Triumph Autograph a year or two back, I've since seen one or two more. Pat Mohan has one.

regards

david

[Hugh]

I saw this one, thought it would have made a lot more. These wide bad Triumphs are really very attractive pens, I might have to acquire some more.. Well done David!!

Regards
Hugh

[Da Vinci]

The photo of the nib makes it look as though the tip is fairly broad. I have been looking for broad tipped conical nibs for a while and they seem quite rare. Most nibs of this design seem to be F/EF size.
If I am right, perhaps that added some value too?

[snorkelcc]

I saw this pen too but unfortunately the seller only sell within US .



I have several 14K band Triumphs but all in black, green Autograph Triumph is rare to me...



Are there any other color for Autograph Triumph besides black and green ?



CC

[david i]

The photo of the nib makes it look as though the tip is fairly broad. I have been looking for broad tipped conical nibs for a while and they seem quite rare. Most nibs of this design seem to be F/EF size.
If I am right, perhaps that added some value too?

Hi,

Particularly broad nibs are a definite plus on old pens on which 90% of the points are XF-M. Not sure this one is more than a Medium, though if so, that would be a nice surprise. But, as has been touched up in this thread, the key finding is not the point, but is the presence of solid gold (vs gold-filled) trim on a non-black pen. The gold-trim pens can be identified (besides by hallmarks) by different pattern to the cap-band than have the gold-filled-trim pens.

regards

david

[david i]

I saw this pen too but unfortunately the seller only sell within US .


I have several 14K band Triumphs but all in black, green Autograph Triumph is rare to me...


Are there any other color for Autograph Triumph besides black and green ?


CC

Hi Snork,

Long time no gab. Good to see you.

This is a question of interest to me, as I've done a bit of research in this arena.

We tend (as did Sheaffer, in retrospect) to cluster 1940's celluloid Sheaffer pens into War (WWII) Era and Post War pens. During both eras, solid gold trim pens (Autograph line, generalizing a term used for at least some Sheaffers with such trim) turn up overwhelmingly in black. This covers 1942-1947, since in 1948 Sheaffer moved to Forticel (an injection plastic) for pen manufacture.

I would not suggest green "casually" as an Triumph Autograph color. More on that in a bit.

Focusing on the gold-trimmed plastic pens (not solid metal cap) pens from the era, the pens collectors call Autograph, nearly 100% found (99.5%, 99.9%?) are black.

In fact, here is a quote from Daniel Kirchheimer, who obsesses perhaps more than anyone about Sheaffers from this era, the last time or two ago this subject arose here,

September 2010: I've not seen 14K-banded "TRIUMPH" items in colors other than black, but given the apparently off-catalog Autograph Balance items that turn up, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

--Daniel

One challenge to collecting 1940s Sheaffers is a lack of consistent concurrent info. For 1930's Sheaffer Balance we might have 9 major catalogues and company pamphlets. No one has as of yet coughed up a true full catalogue from 1942-1946, and indeed iirc a Company Review newsletter from around 1950 cites prior catalogues by image and does not claim any exist from this time. We have many adverts (National Geographic, etc) and a couple small pamphlets, but the information within poses challenges to process.

Perhaps the Rosetta Stone for that era is the 1947 Sheaffer Workbook, which besides containing a retrospective look at a many models, sometimes defining time of appearance and termination, offers a 1947 concurrent catalogue. Problem of course is that sometimes there appears to be errors in the retrospective stuff. I'll defer chat on that point for now.

For post war pens the 1947 Workbook, in its 1947 Catalogue, shows only Black for the "For Your Autograph" model with gold trim. But, the retrospective portion when describing the Valiant II (The $12.50 gold-filled-trim version, also 1945+) cites an Autograph model at $20, and claims black and brown stripe were so offered in plunger fill, and that only black was offered in lever fill (why? I don't know. Typo in Workbook? Maybe). I personally own 2 such pens in brown stripe. I have seen one or two more. Keep in mind... I've seen and handled... many.... pens.

That same Workbook showing only black in its current 1947 catalogue section offers the Tuckaway as Autograph in retrospect (1945+) in a table that features 6 different models along with Autograph... in all five striped colors! I've seen an Autograph post-war Tucky in brown (might not actually own one myself) in addition to the usual black. I'm hardly convinced this retrospective is accurate, but... it might be.

The Sheaffer Workbook is rife with quirks. One could order a music nib in 1947 in a large pen, but only in certain trims and only in certain colors for the trims that were available. Dunno why.

So, we have the basis for finding at least brown and maybe other colors in post-war Autograph. They are... scarce.

----

That brings us back to the 1942-5 War Era pens such as the one in my first post. The 1947 Workbook mentions the $12.50 Triumph but not the $20 (presumed) Autograph. No help there. Which brings us back to Daniel's quote and to the fact that i own two brown-stripe pens now and have seen one or a couple more.

Verily, in this subject we are on the cutting edge of War-era Triumph collecting.

regards

david




The 1947 Workbook

[david i]

Here is an image Woody posted sometime back, showing among other Autographs, the post-war For Your Autograph in brown, noting the pen we discuss today is the earlier war-era wider cap-band pen.



regards

david

[david i]

And, here is an earlier thread with some Autograph Show and Tell

http://fountainpenbo...e-variants-etc/

regards

david

[snorkelcc]

HI David,

Yes, long time no see ! Try to tidy up my collection but no success, it is stil in a mess


Thanks for your information about the 40's Sheaffers !


Sheaffer offered Autograph (let's use this term for solid gold trim pens) in different colors from Lifetime, Balance, Touchdown till Snorkel but only 40s mainly in black...


So far I have only seen level fill Triump in brown, I also own one of them but never seen black level fill, does it mean black level fill Triumph are much rare than brown ?


CC

[david i]

HI David,

SNIP

Sheaffer offered Autograph (let's use this term for solid gold trim pens) in different colors from Lifetime, Balance, Touchdown till Snorkel but only 40s mainly in black...


CC

Hi,

Snorkel (a 1952-9 pen) and Thin Model Touchdown (1951) offered Signature (gold cap-band, gold-filled clip) in black, green, and burgundy. Autograph (all gold trim and wider capband) was offered in black, though I rumors of burgundy Snorks as Autograph.

1930's Sheaffer Balance Autograph generally is found in black, though catalogs and price inserts mention Marine Green (marbled), black/pearl (possibly) and Ebonized Pearl. Other colors turn up. But, the bulk of 'em are black.

The overwhelming majority of 1940's Autographs are black, but retrospectives by Sheaffer (the 1947 Workbook) mention brown stripe for the post-war Autograph and possibly other colors for Tuckaway from that era. I've seen but a handful of brown pens as alternative to the dominant black.

So far I have only seen level fill Triump in brown, I also own one of them but never seen black level fill, does it mean black level fill Triumph are much rare than brown ?

During the War-Era, the thin Triumph pens with wide band can be found in Lever Fill (though not necessarily all variants within that era) in all colors.

Post War is a much more complicated era, and I must review...

regards

david

[snorkelcc]

Ah Ha! I have my disclaimer 'let's use the term Autograph for all the solid trim pens' !
May be those who can afford solid gold trim pens were conservative, black pens were their choice, so even other color Autographs were available, sold quantity compared to black were much smaller... That may be the reason why not too much color Autographs ( or any other solid gold trim models).
Post War Era Sheaffer is also a topic that I am very interested, please share your findings .
CC

[matt]

 

snip

September 2010: I've not seen 14K-banded "TRIUMPH" items in colors other than black, but given the apparently off-catalog Autograph Balance items that turn up, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

--Daniel

In fact, here is a quote from Daniel Kirchheimer, who obsesses perhaps more than anyone about Sheaffers from this era, the last time or two ago this subject arose here,

 

One challenge to collecting 1940s Sheaffers is a lack of consistent concurrent info. For 1930's Sheaffer Balance we might have 9 major catalogues and company pamphlets. No one has as of yet coughed up a true full catalogue from 1942-1946, and indeed iirc a Company Review newsletter from around 1950 cites prior catalogues by image and does not claim any exist from this time. We have many adverts (National Geographic, etc) and a couple small pamphlets, but the information within poses challenges to process.

Perhaps the Rosetta Stone for that era is the 1947 Sheaffer Workbook, which besides containing a retrospective look at a many models, sometimes defining time of appearance and termination, offers a 1947 concurrent catalogue. Problem of course is that sometimes there appears to be errors in the retrospective stuff. I'll defer chat on that point for now.

For post war pens the 1947 Workbook, in its 1947 Catalogue, shows only Black for the "For Your Autograph" model with gold trim. But, the retrospective portion when describing the Valiant II (The $12.50 gold-filled-trim version, also 1945+) cites an Autograph model at $20, and claims black and brown stripe were so offered in plunger fill, and that only black was offered in lever fill (why? I don't know. Typo in Workbook? Maybe). I personally own 2 such pens in brown stripe. I have seen one or two more. Keep in mind... I've seen and handled... many.... pens.

That same Workbook showing only black in its current 1947 catalogue section offers the Tuckaway as Autograph in retrospect (1945+) in a table that features 6 different models along with Autograph... in all five striped colors! I've seen an Autograph post-war Tucky in brown (might not actually own one myself) in addition to the usual black. I'm hardly convinced this retrospective is accurate, but... it might be.

The Sheaffer Workbook is rife with quirks. One could order a music nib in 1947 in a large pen, but only in certain trims and only in certain colors for the trims that were available. Dunno why.

So, we have the basis for finding at least brown and maybe other colors in post-war Autograph. They are... scarce.

----

That brings us back to the 1942-5 War Era pens such as the one in my first post. The 1947 Workbook mentions the $12.50 Triumph but not the $20 (presumed) Autograph. No help there. Which brings us back to Daniel's quote and to the fact that i own two brown-stripe pens now and have seen one or a couple more.

Verily, in this subject we are on the cutting edge of War-era Triumph collecting.

regards

david




The 1947 Workbook

 

 

The 1951 "Complete Service Policy" in the PCA Library ought to get more attention as it seems to have all the identification charts found in the 1947 Workbook and is also available to anyone with a PCA membership.  I believe, for example, it corrects a couple of errors in the 2-page chart of plunger rods, if you compare the 1947 to the 1951.  The 1951 continues to overlook the Triumph and Triumph Tuckaway Autographs (plus the military-clip Service Autograph, among others), but lists the full size post-war Autograph in black only for lever fill and both black and brown stripe for the plunger fill.  The post-war Autograph Tuckaway is listed in black, brown stripe, and Forticel burnt umber.

[david i]

Not sure I ever got around to posting the set photo in this thread.

 

 

 

 

regards

 

-d