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#1 CHICAGO88

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 04:37 PM

Can any one supply the answer?
Sometimes on these pen forums you read about some pen caches being found in obscure locations. Where does one look for these pockets of pens, antique shops, estate sales and how do you know if the items are priced fairly?
Thanks for any info!


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#2 Jiffypens

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:22 PM

All of the above: flea markets, antique stores, estate sales, ebay Posted Image

As far as prices go it all depends on the pen and the condition of the pen. If I were you, buy a book on pens, should give more info. Also there are many online sites about fountain pens.

#3 Jiffypens

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:29 PM

Are you looking for any pens in specific?

#4 david i

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 10:37 PM

Are you looking for any pens in specific?


Hi Jiffy,

I could be mistaken, but given his comment today in this thread on WASP Addipoint nibs---

http://fountainpenbo...b-oh-yeah-stub/

DAVID,
WHERE AND HOW DO SERIOUS COLLECTORS FIND THESE CACHES OF PENS? I'VE ALWAYS BEEN AMAZED AT THIS! THANKS,



--- I assume he is wondering where those of us who regularly deal in pens or who post the "look at the 100 pens I found" threads find the old pen hoards. Once I have quiet minute or three later tonight I will take stab at answer from that perspective. Of course, the "where do I find old pens" in the general sense also if fodder for discussion :)

-d


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#5 penmanila

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:47 AM

this comes from somewhere else on the planet, but here in the philippines, when i started collecting pens seriously almost 20 years ago, i visited all the old stationery and office supplies stores, and struck gold in a few places--i came away with a clutch of NOS parker 75s, including a premiere in chinese lacque, for a song. i've also been lucky visiting small department stores in faraway cities--figuring that they probably had a decent pen or two to offer their best customers--and again i was able to buy some NOS modern duofolds for half the price they were now selling in the capital. nothing like dr. i's treasure troves, of course--but you'd also probably need a bigger budget to buy whole collections. i'm happy at my level with the odd swan eternal, PFM V, and golden web ;)
Check out my pens here and my blog here.

#6 david i

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:45 AM

Can any one supply the answer?
Sometimes on these pen forums you read about some pen caches being found in obscure locations. Where does one look for these pockets of pens, antique shops, estate sales and how do you know if the items are priced fairly?
Thanks for any info!
LeePosted Image

SNIP--

WHERE AND HOW DO SERIOUS COLLECTORS FIND THESE CACHES OF PENS? I'VE ALWAYS BEEN AMAZED AT THIS! THANKS


Hi Lee,

Suspect you are up on where anyone can find- in general- the old pens: retail dealers, tin cans at flea markets, internet auctions sites, non-internet auctions sites (eg. Bonhams, now with Propas working there), internet message boards, pen shows, etc.

But, where do people come up with the "hoards" some of us bleat about from time to time online? Stuff such as:

http://fountainpenbo...ction-oct-2010/



http://fountainpenbo...nt-heeeaar-you/

and

http://fountainpenbo...f-the-pen-show/

Or where in general do the "big" online sellers (most big sellers today of course ARE online) of pens come up with regular stock for resale?

Well, the answers in general will be very... general. Indeed, they perhaps will degenerate into platitude, even bromide. Can you tell I've been toying wtih doing an article on this subject?

How does the pro fiction writer answer, "where do you get your ideas?"?

How does any dealer in old stuff, even true antiquities, get his stock?

I suppose ultimately the general issues/skills in play include: 1) skill/knack/experience for the subject at hand, 2) NETWORKING (yeah, go define that) and 3) Willingness to embrace the expense of large scale purchases and the "hassle" of playing dealer.

Collectable pendom is a niche field no doubt. Very few have taken on sales as any sort of full time occupation. For many it is avocation, hobby perhaps run amuck. Despite the "glory" of playing at retailing, there is significant risk and opportunity cost regarding time, unsold stock, etc. Perhaps rather than explicit boundaries (though one can imagine general lines) the spectrum from f "end user" to "pure dealer" is a continuum, with large regions of overlap (or does that change us from "spectrum" to "Venn Diagram"?). Most out there who seem to be big dealers in old pens either deal in modern pens too (a different game), have other, primary occupation, have spouse with "day" job, have pension in parallel, etc. This is tough business to live on, though a couple manage it well.

Very few have abruptly discovered old pens, bought none for personal use, and simply decided to become mongers of old pens, though I know at least one fellow in the hobby with experience selling other old collectables who with minimal (iirc) exposure to old pens decided to add them to his sale menagerie.

Most who deal in pens, most who manage to find "hoards" start out as collectors. Some take a table at pen show once in life to blow out entire collection or release collection via an organized auction, but don't really make the jump to dealer hunting stock for resale. Others, a small percentage of the small percentage of collectors who even attend pen shows, become regular table holders on the circuit. Once a collector makes the jump to buying pens actively for resale (not just liquidating longstanding parts of his own collection), the mephistophelian deal is done, and he has entered the dark side.

But, finding the hoard, or at least stock via single purchases, is the trick, isn't it. Can't just order from the factory, right?

That's where skill, effort and networking enter the game. Luck, too, I suppose.

Once one establishes his areas of sales interest, he can buy pens- with considerable time and effort- at pen shows. I have 12 years experience as a hack-amateur-newbie pen collector (hmmm... a bit conflicted, I am). If I spend three days at a 150-table pen shows, examine 15,0000 pens, with luck I can return home with 50-100 for resale, having pulled one of each 100-200 that meets condition, interest, pricing that allows me to buy it. Yeah, we hunt ebay too. Skill is key to grading pens, knowing wholesale and retail values, having sense of the challenge to resell any given pen. Dealing, fairly, with hundreds of pens at once is no small trick.

Being wiling and able to buy the above, illustrates the embracing of the hassle factor. I bought a 1000+ pen collection this summer. More than 75% truly junker stuff (broken worn Avons and Arnolds, no joke) but with one uber-rarity for my personal collection and with enough tolerable name material that when all is said and done (and there will be a great deal of "saying" to get this bunch "done") the economics of it will work out ok, even if I in turn blow out some of the low end stuff en masse to those who like that sort, and many collectors do.

Skill comes into play in being able to evaluate a mass of pens, or at least (as iin the case of some old Montblancs in my last hoard purchase; I don't do old MB's) having a vague idea as to value/era and having contacts to provide info on pens outside one's usual focus. Encountering 200-pen hoards does not do one any good if one is not sure he is getting a bulk price vs a supra-retail price. One needs to be able to grade and to know markets, to figure cost of restoration, to decide if he is buying hoard for his own personal collection-- nothing wrong with paying retail for 100 or 1000 pens if one wants them for his own collection--- or for resale, to weigh the time involved in subsequent liquidation.

Of course, networking and success at hunting is key to being able to start the processes cited above. Many have the dream to find hoards of old pens (or of any other collectable of interest). Many even have some ability to resell said pens, offering them in shops, online, at pen shows with some success, knowing the value of the finds, factoring costs of repair, etc. But all that is of limited use in dealing with hoards, if he does not encounter... hoards.

Presence in the hobby and longstanding contacts are the driving forces there, I believe. If one has a big mouth online and is known for a willingness to deal- preferably fairly- some hoards will find their way to him. If one has been a dealer for twenty years and supplied quality pens to collectors, they will recall who was that reliable source when the time to sell arrives. Luck of course is a factor. Two people have tables at a pen show. A grandchild of a deceased collector wanders in with 500 pens, walks past one table as he happens not to see many of the same pens, then speaks to the collector at next table who has a few out. That collector- perhaps even with no online presence, with no retail site- ends up grabbing hundreds of pens. Heck, at one LA Pen SHow, I was sitting next to my often-roommate at these things, MIke Dvoretz, and a fellow strolled in front of our table not even looking at us, but wth three 48-pen pen cases in hand. I literally called out to him, "do you have pens for sale?". He turned and came over, having not even been glancing our way in his walk, and Mike and I ended up sharing a purchase of many very nice vintage pens. Luck. Chutzpah, etc.

But, getting back to what I think is your core point, the pen hoards are the really fun part, though not all work as deals and some involve fair hassle. But, they are out there. Someone collects ten years and wants out abruptly (shift in interest, financial issues, etc). Dealers often can buy out large collections at a fair wholesale value. The collector will not get retail, but he can sell in a day what will take even the dealer years to liquidate, and which might take him more years to liquidate with considerable effort probably at lower price than the dealer's final sales point.

Then there are estates, which crop up in different settings. One might find an auction. Or, as one pen friend did in one of the links I provided, one might find a hoard in possession of an antiques dealer, that had to have been a liquidated collection (125 decent Parkers, most restored and clean). Old store stock finds today are few and far between, but still happen.

In the old days pre-internet, well networked collectors (and dealers, with overlap), spent untold hours cultivating pickers, people all over the land who spotted pens in shops, flea markets, etc. They would buy out the picker's finds, good and bad, hoping to teach the picker to find good stuff, while hoping the picker didn't get so good or networked enough on his own, as to no longer need to sell pens to the collector/dealer-in-chief ;)

Today that approach to pen finding is less powerful, as many "pickers" now are sellers on ebay, no longer feeding pens to would-be-dealers. The net has opened the hobby. In the pre-internet era, I could not have developed the dealer-role I have today. I would not have had the time to hunt in the wild or- being relatively late to the party- had the chance to establish a picker network. Things change.

One can argue whether it is a good idea to suck up pen collections left and right in a tough economy. Perhaps one will end up "stuck" with many old pens in a diminished market. Fair worry, but one I've considered and and content to embrace. Tough economies bring out collections but increase the risk in taking on collections. So it goes. Pick the poison. I'm willing to cough up cash for significant collections and that makes me a reasonable target for those with old pens to sell en masse, Gary, Bob, David N, Rob and others skilled at this obviously make the same choice and thus get hoards too.

And, don't discount luck ;)

-david
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#7 Penman

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:28 AM

As we all know, everyone has there own style of collecting and we all make mistakes. Many, myself included, go through phases of acquiring as opposed to selecting, but - no real harm done.

My first pen was bought new in 1964, and I still have it. I have been buying steadily ever since, I think I have sold three pens in all those years and that was just because someone wanted that pen a lot more than I did.

I dont buy much that is new any longer, the last one was a Conklin Herringbone in pale blue which looking stunning under the 2010 London Pen Show lights, the last new pen before that..... well it could have been the '64, at least pens that I bought myself as opposed to presents bought for me.

I don't go looking in antique shops or fleamarkets, maybe good stuff is out there, maybe not.

I have found a rich seam in newspaper advertisements, does the rest of the World have "free-ads"? A wanted notice in a local news paper, 'Fountain pen collector is looking for pens, will collect and pay cash, older the better' then put your cell phone number.

This approach always produces good results for me with some interesting finds. I know one collector who tried something similar and found 600 pens at one house, almost all were English pens 1928-1950.

I am happy with a typical find of some P51/61s, a Conway Stewart and, corn in Egypt, a nice vac.



#8 Roger W.

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 05:22 PM

As we all know, everyone has there own style of collecting and we all make mistakes. Many, myself included, go through phases of acquiring as opposed to selecting, but - no real harm done.

My first pen was bought new in 1964, and I still have it. I have been buying steadily ever since, I think I have sold three pens in all those years and that was just because someone wanted that pen a lot more than I did.

I dont buy much that is new any longer, the last one was a Conklin Herringbone in pale blue which looking stunning under the 2010 London Pen Show lights, the last new pen before that..... well it could have been the '64, at least pens that I bought myself as opposed to presents bought for me.

I don't go looking in antique shops or fleamarkets, maybe good stuff is out there, maybe not.

I have found a rich seam in newspaper advertisements, does the rest of the World have "free-ads"? A wanted notice in a local news paper, 'Fountain pen collector is looking for pens, will collect and pay cash, older the better' then put your cell phone number.

This approach always produces good results for me with some interesting finds. I know one collector who tried something similar and found 600 pens at one house, almost all were English pens 1928-1950.

I am happy with a typical find of some P51/61s, a Conway Stewart and, corn in Egypt, a nice vac.


Yah,

I did the newspaper thing here in the States and it doesn't work as well. I did get a 6 foot Snorkel era Sheaffer cabinet from the local jeweler. Then there was the guy that contacted me two years after I ran the ads. Some OK Parkers but, his Dad, the doctor, hand engraved (via a dremel) his name on them! Still I made $100 on about 6 pens. There also was a "hoard" only the guy had one Rider that he thought was $1,000 with the other dross. The Rider was cracked cap and missing the clip so more like $250 but, he just didn't get it. So for several months running the ad it was slim pickens.

Roger W.

#9 Jiffypens

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 11:27 PM

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#10 gaetanocallista

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:04 AM

x david i.
thanks for your answer. It was a long time that I did not read something so interesting. Although I always read your forum I never replied, but your answer made me to do it. Personally I am a young collector (young only as collector) and I do not know what advice to give. But what I can see is that online sales sites often or very often, have much higher prices than those that you can check on ebay from the same sellers and often for the same pens. Probably, reversing this feature and accepting (the sellers) lower prices the market would be more alive and collectors happier.:)

#11 david i

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 02:52 PM

x david i.
thanks for your answer. It was a long time that I did not read something so interesting. Although I always read your forum I never replied, but your answer made me to do it. Personally I am a young collector (young only as collector) and I do not know what advice to give.


Hi,

Thanks for joining the chat. I tend to consider this type of discussion one that analyzes the Business of Collectable Pendom. It looks at how things work, or atleast my small view of how they work, at the level of higher volume dealing/buying, market pricing, trends etc. As this is very small hobby without nationally reproducible market, obviously there is heavy subjective elements. And, even my very busy website deals in moderate priced old pens. Only rarely do I buy/sell pens costing >$1000



But what I can see is that online sales sites often or very often, have much higher prices than those that you can check on ebay from the same sellers and often for the same pens.


I'm not certain I completely agree, but can at least comment on some points here.

I do agree that any non-retail setting offers possibility for bargains, and for deals that seem like bargains but are not always really bargains ;) I might sell a restored excellent Parker Vcaumatic Maxima, with one year warranty, etc, for $500. Such a pen might turn up in a steel can at a flea market for $10. There are still enough old pens out there and the hobby small enough that nice discoveries happen. There is no way for retailer to compete with that. Same pen might be found on ebay with blurry picture and poor description, and one might get it for $200, still an apparent bargain compared to retail, but, if it has bad brassing and cap cracks then really no bargain at all.

I buy pens on ebay regularly. They can be found. I suspect collectors generally do better finding basic pens on ebay cheaply. Something that might retail $150 after $35 restoration, but $60 on ebay. Even with cost of restoration, that can be good deal, assuming pen turns out not to have problems. There are many ways to find old pens. But, the time spent hunting many auctions to save $20-30 total (of course, if one likes the hunt, then this is time well spent), the risk of getting bad pens, should be factored in.

However, I don't see pen retailers (eg. Gary Lehrer, Bob Novak, David Nishimura... me) selling the very same pens cheaply on ebay that they sell for higher cost on their own websites. If you have better information, I am happy to reconsider my view on this. ;)

Probably, reversing this feature and accepting (the sellers) lower prices the market would be more alive and collectors happier.:)


Not sure I follow the point. No doubt buyers would be happier if sellers sold more cheaply. Indeed, I said just the same thing to Lexus car dealer last week, when browsing at new cars, "if only you would sell me $40,000 car for $20,000, I would be very happy and you would sell more cars". That line of reasoning did not get me very far. Posted Image

But, even if retailers sold at lower prices, they would have to pay lower prices still to buy collections. All elements of business are connected.

Yes, too, I know that there might seem to collecting community, a "who do you think you are?" element to playing at being a retailer. But, most markets, even one in which one might find a "$500" pen in a tin can at flea market for $10, needs standard bearers and quality, well structured sellers. There are many people who like old pens, who do not want to travel the land hunting for them, even though there can be fun to this. They are busy. They want service and quality and... convenience.

One fellow who has bought plenty pens from me wrote looking for a hard-to-find and popular old pen. I pointed out that I probably could find him one at a pen show, but that this pen is very well known to collectors, and if a nice one is at a table, most sellers even at pen show will be asking similar price to my usual website price, when I find such things at reasonable price as part of collection purchase. I could buy the pen at the show but might have to ask $650 instead of $500, even for guaranteed sale. I noted he might do better to come to show himself and buy pen, cutting me out as middle man. HIs response? He noted he was disinclined to give up couple days work at $250/hr, spend $500+ to come to show, to try to buy pen from someone who does not give guarantee, who he never would see again, who might sell him bad pen. He noted the extra $150 was a bargain for the service provided. I was honored. This does, though, reveal that not all collectors just seek lowest price ;)

Of course, given how frantically busy my hospital work has been, particularly this year, I often ask why I play at being a dealer of old pens. Well, many hobbies take time. I enjoy the time spent at pen shows with pen friends, answering questions online, etc. I greatly enjoying buying pens. Maybe I enjoy that more than I enjoy even owning pens. Too, every pen I buy can be photographed for my archives, used in future magazine articles, etc. Selling pens gives me great excuse to keep buying pens. Otherwise I'd own very many pens. Too, this year, the 7 collections that have come to me for bulk purchase has been superb experience.

regards

David
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#12 Paul E

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 05:36 PM

Dear Lee,

I've been collecting fountain pens for close to thirty years and big caches of pens used to come in cigar boxes at flea markets or antique shops. Rarely did they come from other collectors because in the 'old days' we didn't even know who the other collectors were. Most everything was done by the 'seat of your pants' method. In other words, there were tons of pens out there and not many people looking for them.

As for finding caches of pens today, it is not likely that an inexperienced collector will stumble blindly onto a 'hoard' of them. David gave a lengthy answer, but in short- start shelling out big $$ for pens and caches will find you. (At pen shows, for example.) Also, treat people fairly and even more pens will continue to come your way. Of course, the next thing is: you need to know what you are looking at- a 'hoard' of pens is a lot of pens and it takes expertise to value them fairly- and then what? What are you going to do with a bazillion pens you really don't like or need? Can't cherry pick when buying a hoard.
Wishing for a 'hoard' of pens to come your way is similar to the grass being greener on the other side. One you are there, then what? It is often easier to buy them than to sell them all. But if you insist on buying a 'hoard' start talking to aging collectors who are looking to sell their pens. Just don't be surprised if they have more knowledge and experience than you do to back up their side of the negotiations when it comes to working out a price for the whole enchilada. And how do you value pens anyway? A pen may be one price on Monday and a different price on Friday. Buying someone's collection outright is not everyone's cup of tea- nor should it be. It requires experience, expertise, and cash to proceed fairly.

#13 Hugh

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:52 AM

I've only come across one person who had a "hoard" to sell, he had them all listed and wanted to sell the lot. Looking down the brands a lot of interesting stuff, but a lot I would have wanted to move on. At the end of the day I didn't even go and look, although I might when I revist that area as he had a number of Conklins, as the only viable way I have of moving pens is ebay ( or board posts) neither of which really attract much interest unless genuinely "of interest" . I think Paul summed it up nicely with " It requires experience, expertise, and cash to proceed fairly. ", it also requires experience , expertise and marketing to move the unwanted. While I've never lost money selling pens, I haven't made much either so for me to "break even" is a factor. For me justing filling in gaps ( albiet very, very large onesPosted Image) and trying to buy at the "right" price (cheaply...while money isn't a problem there's little point in paying too much for what, to me, is a hobby from which I'll never see a return on investment). It is amazing though how difficult it can be to find what should be an easy pen to aquire , in this case a simple metal capped black TM Sentinal in good condition at the "right" price. Even people (like David I.) are going to have trouble moving some pens they buy in single purchases ( I think anyway) as an Arnold or Wearever isn't worth much....and I haven't seen either on the Vacumania sale pagePosted Image .....

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley




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