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An oddity (Sheaffer TD Cadet. 1960 not 1950?)


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#1 Hugh

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 09:34 AM

Grey Cadet 23

Never seen a grey before, and more unusual is that the section is not "colour matched" as in all the others I've come across. The asking price, imo, borders on the absurd....I was given mine (a blue better quality Aust. made onePosted Image...hey, come on, it's a free world..you don't have to agree!!)...and in near mint working condition, having used one..not bad, not good...I ,personally, wouldn't bother with them either to use or collect ( despite this clearly being the better Australian made versionPosted Image). That said a rather unusual , dare I say even "rare" pen.

Regards
Hugh

(Title edited to enhance future searches. Regards. Admin)
Hugh Cordingley

#2 david i

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 10:08 AM

Grey Cadet 23

Never seen a grey before, and more unusual is that the section is not "colour matched" as in all the others I've come across. The asking price, imo, borders on the absurd....I was given mine (a blue better quality Aust. made onePosted Image...hey, come on, it's a free world..you don't have to agree!!)...and in near mint working condition, having used one..not bad, not good...I ,personally, wouldn't bother with them either to use or collect ( despite this clearly being the better Australian made versionPosted Image). That said a rather unusual , dare I say even "rare" pen.

Regards
Hugh


Is it even a Cadet?

For some reason, I believe Cadet has white trim and white nib, with Admiral having yellow metal. While I have quite a hoard now of 1940's Sheaffer (which technically can include 'fat" TD, intro'd 1949 and wtih- i suspect- low line Cadet and Admiral part of the pre-TM TD era-- i'm not certain) including a few Cadet and Admiral, I'm not sure offhand on the color match thing. Cannot look until home next week and then must find the darn things. Not sure, too, on my thoughts about the model names.

As to value? Dunno. If gold nib and with formal restoration of any pen worth around $30 at least, these are well more scarce than Snorks, but of course appear to have have less cachet. Weird world in pens. Celluloid Vacumatics can be found restored around $100 and up retail, but how low can a gold nibbed, big-4 clean pen really go? Of course if this one is not restored....

-d
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#3 Hugh

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 11:56 AM

It's a Tip-Dip Cadet 23, the "upmarket" Cadet with gold nib and gold trim with the correct number 23 nib . The nib is a screw out type as per normal tip-dip Cadets, this is a late ~ '62/3 model. To me it was a strange model, with the various Imperial models being launched why take the bottom end and add a gold nib to what was a "dead" model. Not common that's for sure but owning one doesn't give me that "warm inner glow" associated with "rarer" pens. Price...I'm probably a bit hard on it....but then again

Posted Image


this for under $45 (and under $50 delivered) puts it in context as per quality/$ ...this one could do with another nib though I'll probably just grind it.
and


Posted Image


A '50 "fat" brown ( fully working) for $37 , again under $50 delivered make me think it's overpriced, on that it'll probably sell in the next 10 minutes Posted Image


Regards
Hugh



Hugh Cordingley

#4 david i

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:11 PM

It's a Tip-Dip Cadet 23, the "upmarket" Cadet with gold nib and gold trim with the correct number 23 nib . The nib is a screw out type as per normal tip-dip Cadets, this is a late ~ '62/3 model. To me it was a strange model, with the various Imperial models being launched why take the bottom end and add a gold nib to what was a "dead" model. Not common that's for sure but owning one doesn't give me that "warm inner glow" associated with "rarer" pens. Price...I'm probably a bit hard on it....but then again


Well, the lowest line TD's have not been big focus for me, so I might have erroneous view of these, but you are noting the pens of the contour in the ad you cited were intro'd in 1962? Not 1950 or so?

If so, that would be quite late for torpedo shaped TD pen, but if such late production was done with this filler/contour this might explain some of the anomalous Thin Model Touchdown pens we discussed recently. I will have to review my 1949 catalogue when home.



SNIP PIC.

this for under $45 (and under $50 delivered) puts it in context as per quality/$ ...this one could do with another nib though I'll probably just grind it.
and

SNIP PIC.

A '50 "fat" brown ( fully working) for $37 , again under $50 delivered make me think it's overpriced, on that it'll probably sell in the next 10 minutes Posted Image

Regards
Hugh


Yeah, this is the stuff that could go in "ELEMENTS OF COLLECTING". The Venn Diagram of pen value has hefty overlap, perhaps more so at the low end. That I once found a fuzzy-imaged Vacumatic Maxima (red) on ebay for $60 in open bidding does not change the retail value of the pen from its $550-700 (clean) range. My view is that retail on a restored, guaranteed Valiant "fat Touchdown era" in clean shape probably starts now around $140 or so. One might still find one on ebay raw (maybe even clean) for $10. So... what's the "real" value" ;)

Same for this "Cadet" (I still wonder if it is Admiral). A touchdown filler, with gold nib, IF has had the mythical $30 investment for restoration (yeah, I know, if just needs resac can be done more cheaply. If done by the seller, perhaps the restoration adds just to salability, not to gross price, etc), in world where Waterman Phileas with steel nib runs $40... how cheap should such a pen retail?

I'm not shy about honest wholesale-retail price.discussion. When buying these clean as part of collection (I rarely bid on single Admiral/Cadet), i might offer $10-15. After full restoration, idunno, might sell $70-90 depending (hmmm, maybe time to raise prices on Snorkel). I guess there is a floor of sorts for any pen sold retail with restoration, or... there will be no retail market for the involved pen, which- per some collectors- might not be a bad thing ;)

-d
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#5 Hugh

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 10:19 PM

Hi David,

The pen in question, from Jim Mamoulides site. Same colour as mine
Posted Image


I guess there could be a connection as you suggest ( well, there nearly has too be I would think) . The construction of mine is cheap compared to a snork, the plastic joins on the section are "raised" etc, the barrel looks similiar quality though , school pens I guess where as the "TM" style touchdowns that have turned up ( and your most recent ones) appear to be well finished. Sheaffer was using these smaller Triumph points on touchdowns like the Target and Imperial 2 and 3 around our "guestimated" time of production of those "TMs", so "wacking" one on a Torpedo wouldn't have been a big deal... charging more and cleaning up excess stock...hence not often seen ( idle speculation of course!!) . I've heard it mentioned that Aust. snork production may have run as late as 1962, again right in the time frame. These "TMs" also remain a mystery to Jim Mamoulides and he's pretty good in that era, having discussed them on the FPN with him, at that stage the speculation was that they where not made in the US, Canada being the suspect then Aust. ones turned up.

Of course retail has to be way above wholesale, as you've mentioned restoration, factor in losses on unwanted pens purchased in bulk lots ( don't recall seeing an Arnold or Wearever on VacumaniaPosted Image), warranty,money tied up until sold and profit all add up substantially to the end price, with "ebay mania" this is often overlooked. Being a "Rancher" ( "Graziers" over here) I'm very well aware of the price structure, although it still hurts when we average around $6 per supermarket saleable kg of beef ( about half what US producers get may I add..and they still compete price wise on the export market with us...figure that one out!!) and a decent steaks $25+kgPosted Image Having only come across one bulk lot which the owner had documented, looking down the list those I didn't want would have caused more problems to me than those I did (pricing,marketing etc)...I didn't even go and look. I guess the reality of a 1000 pen find really turns into something a lot less in terms saleable pens and profit. The pen in the OP is priced as you've suggested, how long it takes to sell is a different matter.

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley

#6 david i

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:20 AM

Hi David,

The pen in question, from Jim Mamoulides site. Same colour as mine

I guess there could be a connection as you suggest ( well, there nearly has too be I would think) . The construction of mine is cheap compared to a snork, the plastic joins on the section are "raised" etc, the barrel looks similiar quality though , school pens I guess where as the "TM" style touchdowns that have turned up ( and your most recent ones) appear to be well finished. Sheaffer was using these smaller Triumph points on touchdowns like the Target and Imperial 2 and 3 around our "guestimated" time of production of those "TMs", so "wacking" one on a Torpedo wouldn't have been a big deal... charging more and cleaning up excess stock...hence not often seen ( idle speculation of course!!) . I've heard it mentioned that Aust. snork production may have run as late as 1962, again right in the time frame. These "TMs" also remain a mystery to Jim Mamoulides and he's pretty good in that era, having discussed them on the FPN with him, at that stage the speculation was that they where not made in the US, Canada being the suspect then Aust. ones turned up.
SNIP


Hi Hugh,

Again, I note that I was pulled kicking and screaming into Snorkel, proper, having not intended to collect that pen, but my collection finds and retail sales having led me to do some research, leading to that web guide I'm still tweaking. I'm woefully weak on most 1960's+ Sheaffers.

Your ad does suggest that the TD Cadet was found with gold and with white metal as two sub-models. Cool. I still recall seeing a yellow-trim pen of this sort with Admiral markings. It is possible that the Admiral had slightly heftier nib (maybe a "33" instead of "23", who knows?). Now I am motivated to find those pens I have lying about. Jim's ad you show was dated to 1960's??? If so... interesting. ;)

-d




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#7 Hugh

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 02:20 AM

Hi David,

I should mention Jim has a great article on these (Tip dip) , from that article:

"The pen looks strikingly similar to the Touchdown Admiral of 1950-1952, with a plain rather than two-tone nib. The pen appears as early as the 1961 catalog and is not in the 1963 catalog, so it probably had a short history. Having seen none of these in the field, they may be quite scarce, or may be mixed up with earlier Admiral pens.
There are two spotting features to distinguish this pen. The first telltale would be the nib, a plain open 14 karat gold nib stamped "23, which is incorrect for a 1950-1952 Admiral, which has a two-tone palladium masked nib, or a 1950-1952 Craftsman, which was fitted with a 14 karat gold nib stamped "33." The second would be the presence of the Tip-Dip feed, with its distinctive channel opening in the front, and absent from the 1950-1952 pens."

...where I got most of my info when I was given one. Even in it's early days your snork guide was very useful, I look forward to the "finished" guide

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley

#8 Hugh

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:46 AM

Well, well, well.....they even came as a desk set. This one from Speerbob, he's also misidentified it as a TM despite the tip-dip feed!!

Regards
Hugh

Edit to add: After all the talk I had to get mine out Posted Image Gave the nib the once over, checked the alignment etc....actually writes better than I had remembered. The nib is a decent size to boot for a cheap pen and would no doubt be an acceptable user pen but the finish of the section ...why bother when I've got a "bucket load" of better finished , good writing pens.....back to cabinet for this onePosted Image
Hugh Cordingley

#9 david i

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:07 PM

Another one with a black section

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item588a9c27ef

d
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#10 Hugh

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:20 AM

Another one with a black section

http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item588a9c27ef

d


This ones a different model though. It's a TM Admiral...the similiarity with the Cadet 23 shows how easily they could be confused, the difference being the 2-tone nib and lack of a tip-dip feed.

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley

#11 david i

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:00 PM

And another one. Gray pen with white trim. Black section


http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item1e5f68b5eb

d

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#12 J Appleseed

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:43 PM

And another one. Gray pen with white trim. Black section


http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item1e5f68b5eb

d


That is an ordinary Cadet with what appears to be an M1 standard steel nib. Garden variety.

Perhaps a quick overview of the tip-dips is in order.

The Cadet originally appeared (per Jim Mamoulides) in 1952, with the following:

Torpedo-shaped touchdown filling system, nearly identical to TM touchdown.
White trim with single band, similar to Admiral
Tip-dip feed
Steel nib with "N"1 designation (F1, M1, etc)
Black section.
Colors in Black, Burgundy, Pastel Green, Pastel Blue, grey.


Craftsman pens were also around the same time - identical to the Cadet, except:

Polished steel cap.

Later in the line (1960s roughly - I don't think we have a clear date for the transition) the Cadets changed to:

Section same as body color
Available in Burgundy, Blue, Sage Green, Black and Vermillion.


The Casdet "23" was a separate variation of the Cadet that appears to have been short lived from perhaps '61-'63(? - it was not in '63 catalog). Identical to the cadet except:

14K gold nib marked 23 on tip-dip feed
Gold trim, similar to admiral.
Had same-color section as late Cadet


What Hugh is remarking on is a Cadet "23" with a black section, which could indicate either a section swap, or that the Cadet "23" was made prior to the switch to same-colored sections. The Cadet "23" is an unusual variant, and not the most common.

Steel nib, silver trim, black section is probably the most commonly found varient of the cadet.

I have a low-priority collection of these - slowly working on all tip-dip varients, but only if they are cheap. So far I have all of the early black-section cadets, most of the craftsman, and a few of the late cadets. Still working on a Cadet 23

John

#13 J Appleseed

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:02 PM

Speaking of Cadets - did anyone get the box-o-late-chalk-marked-cadets that closed yesterday? Instant collection!

VINTAGE LOT SHAEFFER CADET FOUNTAIN PENS

John

#14 david i

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 05:56 AM

Speaking of Cadets - did anyone get the box-o-late-chalk-marked-cadets that closed yesterday? Instant collection!

VINTAGE LOT SHAEFFER CADET FOUNTAIN PENS

John



Uhhhh.... possibly ;)

-d





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#15 david i

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:07 AM

Hugh started this thread discussing a color variation on the Sheaffer Cadet.

The Cadet (generally found with white trim) to my eye is quite similar to the 1950 Touchdown Sheaffer Admiral (that pen not in front of me but believe it has nib higher grade than the "23" gold nib found in some of the Cadets with yellow trim). I assumed/guessed/speculated that white trimmed Cadet and yellow trimmed Cadet 23 (with gold nib) were lower line versions of the Admiral, though there was some vague unease at the presence of colors for Cadet that generally did not appear until later for other Sheaffer pens. Too, they appear with matching gripping sections, not seen generally also until later for other injection-plastic Sheaffers.

Hugh pointed out that the Cadet- despite a general look in common with the 1950 (pre Snorkel) Admiral- was ~1960 issue. Makes sense but still was a bit of a surprise to me, what with resurrection (barring some below the radar continuous production) of a 1950 look. This fell in place with our finding a pen that looked like the high line Thin Model Touchdown of 1951, but with slip cap and matching gripping section, a pen that turned out to be (again) 1960-ish production (again resurrecting a generally earlier look) and carrying the name Imperial, despite looking rather different from most Imperials of the 1960's.

When an entire mint tray of Cadets showed up on ebay, what could I do??? I bought 'em.

Note some colors seemingly shared with Snorkels today of significant cachet: Sage and a Vermilion-ish hue (no pun intended).

Ebay practically gave 'em away.

Posted Image


egards

David
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#16 Hugh

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 01:56 AM

Hi David,

Surprisingly attractive as a "boxed set" and at the price even more soPosted Image So that leaves just one odd touchdown now......

Regards
Hugh
Hugh Cordingley




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