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Best Rider pen ever? The Snake...


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#1 david i

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:42 AM

Hi,

One of the charms of experiencing pen shows is the chance to see exotic old pens.

Gary Lehrer brought a JG Rider (a quality small make, scarce in any form) to the show, this one with a sterling snake overlay. Verily, a monster pen.

I did not have my formal photo set-up with me, but managed a couple quick shots with ambient lighting.

Posted Image


At this point, I have seen 1910-ish snake overlay pens by Parker, LE Waterman, JG Rider and Wirt.

Others?

Oh yeah, here is a more typical Rider

Posted Image


regards

David
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#2 Growler

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:16 PM

Alas, if not for bad weather I would have a very nice collection of snake pens.
There is just something about them that draws my attention and I can't seem to let one go by without trying to own it.

#3 David Nishimura

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 03:15 PM

Don't forget A. A. Waterman, and though it might well be classified as a subset of Parker (kinda like the Parker Diamond Medals, though less clear how they came to be), Heath.









#4 Don Lavin

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 03:27 PM

Hi David. As for the "Rider" snake, when I attended the very first pen show in New Jersey in the 80's I was by the front entrance when a collector asked about getting a table. I was helping George and Stuart at the time so I brought him in and found him a space. I asked him what kind of pens he had and he produced a tray with no less than 15 or so bhr overlays without nibs and in some cases without sections and feeds. They were demonstrators for the Heath Co. silver work and each was on a J.G. Rider barrel. I formed a syndicate (Dan and Mike) and we bought the entire collection except for one pen which he had converted and was using daily - the Snake you have pictured. The other pens were all identical to the Parker overlays of the same period - early examples of Heath's work which were eventually bought by Parker for their pens. I have seen the same workmanship and Heath mark on Swan pens of the period and Waterman pens. So I don't know if technically, this is a Rider snake or a model of the silver work placed on the Rider barrel. As for our syndicate there were numerous duplicates and triplicates so we did not have to arm wrestle to split up the trove.


Also, in Columbus I tried to broker the sale of one of the rarest snakes in existence - the Heath Snake but not the kind used by Parker. It has a fully covered cap with gold filled metal. The background is a tree trunk of sort with the snake winding down the cap and up the barrel. The barrel is mostly fully covered except for the section and the bottom of the barrel. A really beautiful pen and yes, the snake have the same green eyes as on the Parker. This pen did not have the famous Heath mark anywhere but it did sport a Heath nib and we know that Heath did make pens on their own. Mike Fultz never owned a complete Heath snake but he did have a cap for one. In my opinion the snake pens with the fully covered caps and barrels are far superior to the plain snakes on black hard rubber.


If I am successful in getting the seller to reduce his asking price the buyer will be more than happy to let me photograph it for the pen community.
Don Lavin:

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#5 philm

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 05:33 PM

Man, I love Riders and this one is amazing!...thanks for the photo. Funny, that I will be in Rockford on business next Monday / Tuesday. I always think I will stumble on one there...never do.

Phil

#6 Jiffypens

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:21 AM

It seems as though many people brought pens to show off in Ohio...perhaps at the LA show I will bring a few Posted Image

#7 david i

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 01:36 AM


Hi David. As for the "Rider" snake, when I attended the very first pen show in New Jersey in the 80's I was by the front entrance when a collector asked about getting a table. I was helping George and Stuart at the time so I brought him in and found him a space. I asked him what kind of pens he had and he produced a tray with no less than 15 or so bhr overlays without nibs and in some cases without sections and feeds. They were demonstrators for the Heath Co. silver work and each was on a J.G. Rider barrel. I formed a syndicate (Dan and Mike) and we bought the entire collection except for one pen which he had converted and was using daily - the Snake you have pictured.


The other pens were all identical to the Parker overlays of the same period - early examples of Heath's work which were eventually bought by Parker for their pens. I have seen the same workmanship and Heath mark on Swan pens of the period and Waterman pens. So I don't know if technically, this is a Rider snake or a model of the silver work placed on the Rider barrel. As for our syndicate there were numerous duplicates and triplicates so we did not have to arm wrestle to split up the trove.



Hi Don,

Interesting history.

If these were- primarily- Heath demonstrators (of a sort, demonstrating the overlay craftsmanship) that just happened to use Rider pens as substrate, I can understand the use of quotes on "Rider", but I keep open whether this enhances or lessens the cachet of the pen. It is possible (but seemingly unproven at this point) that the pens were not planned catalogued Rider pens and were rather just incidental Riders, which takes away perhaps a bit of the "Rider-ness" of them. On other hand, if these were made just as a tray or three by Heath for use by Heath, then likely far fewer exist than if Rider offered the pen routinely for sale for years. Verily, ambiguous terrain. And, again, we don't know that Rider did not sell these ;)


Also, in Columbus I tried to broker the sale of one of the rarest snakes in existence - the Heath Snake but not the kind used by Parker. It has a fully covered cap with gold filled metal. The background is a tree trunk of sort with the snake winding down the cap and up the barrel. The barrel is mostly fully covered except for the section and the bottom of the barrel. A really beautiful pen and yes, the snake have the same green eyes as on the Parker. This pen did not have the famous Heath mark anywhere but it did sport a Heath nib and we know that Heath did make pens on their own. Mike Fultz never owned a complete Heath snake but he did have a cap for one. In my opinion the snake pens with the fully covered caps and barrels are far superior to the plain snakes on black hard rubber.

If I am successful in getting the seller to reduce his asking price the buyer will be more than happy to let me photograph it for the pen community.




Yes, I know the pen... annnnnnd.... I shot it back in 2002. I made mistake at start of this thread citing my familiarity with snake pens by LE Waterman, Parker, "Wirt" and now Rider. Instead of Wirt, I meant to indicate Heath. And, as you noted, Heath is considered the source of fancy overlays for many old pens.

Here we see an LE Waterman sterling double snake taper cap, Parker snake, Heath gold-filled snake. Note the Heath is fully covered with that tree-bark background, similar more to Waterman than Parker, with the Rider that started this thread resembling the Parker.

I have high res images of the Heath, but this shot is an old lower-res montage.

Posted Image



regards

David
David R. Isaacson MD. Website: VACUMANIA.com for quality old pens with full warranty.
Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

Posted Image

#8 Don Lavin

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 05:20 PM

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Hi Don,

Interesting history.

If these were- primarily- Heath demonstrators (of a sort, demonstrating the overlay craftsmanship) that just happened to use Rider pens as substrate, I can understand the use of quotes on "Rider", but I keep open whether this enhances or lessens the cachet of the pen. It is possible (but seemingly unproven at this point) that the pens were not planned catalogued Rider pens and were rather just incidental Riders, which takes away perhaps a bit of the "Rider-ness" of them. On other hand, if these were made just as a tray or three by Heath for use by Heath, then likely far fewer exist than if Rider offered the pen routinely for sale for years. Verily, ambiguous terrain. And, again, we don't know that Rider did not sell these ;)


[/size][/b][/size]


Yes, I know the pen... annnnnnd.... I shot it back in 2002. I made mistake at start of this thread citing my familiarity with snake pens by LE Waterman, Parker, "Wirt" and now Rider. Instead of Wirt, I meant to indicate Heath. And, as you noted, Heath is considered the source of fancy overlays for many old pens.

Here we see an LE Waterman sterling double snake taper cap, Parker snake, Heath gold-filled snake. Note the Heath is fully covered with that tree-bark background, similar more to Waterman than Parker, with the Rider that started this thread resembling the Parker.

I have high res images of the Heath, but this shot is an old lower-res montage.

Posted Image



regards

David


Don Lavin:

Posted Image

#9 David Nishimura

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:34 PM

It is a peculiarity of Heath-made writing instruments and overlays that the silver examples are consistently marked, whereas the gold filled examples are equally consistently unmarked.

#10 Michael Quitt

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:46 PM

I'm pretty sure that Mark Hoover/Cliff Harrington had a Heath Snake at the DC Pen show. I don't know if they sold it there or not.

#11 David Nishimura

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:07 PM

There is at least one other gold filled Heath Snake pen, whose overlay is identical to that found on Parker Snakes.  I sold that pen some ten years ago; I believe other examples are known.

The subject of Heath overlays is a fascinating one, and still largely a mystery.  We know that many top-line penmakers used Heath overlays.  We know that Heath sold overlay pens under their own name.  We know that certain overlay designs appear on both Heath-branded and other-branded pens.  But we don't know how this all came to be.  We don't know if Heath was the originator of all of the overlay designs they produced, or if they also made overlays to customers' designs.  Likely they did both -- still, we really don't know for sure.  The Rider-mounted display overlays mentioned above are solid evidence that Heath wasn't just making overlays on request, but rather was actively coming up with designs and presenting them to penmaker customers.  












#12 Kirchh

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:22 PM

Are these Riders marked as such on the barrels?

--Daniel

#13 David Nishimura

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:41 PM

 

Are these Riders marked as such on the barrels?

As I recall, they have the usual barrel imprints to be expected on a non-overlay eyedropper.


I believe the pen Gary had at Ohio was the same as the one at the DC show.



#14 Mike Kirk

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 04:46 AM

Man, I love Riders and this one is amazing!...thanks for the photo. Funny, that I will be in Rockford on business next Monday / Tuesday. I always think I will stumble on one there...never do.

Phil



I've been there on business many times, Phil. I actually did stumble on a JG Rider there. Well, actually a few miles north in Beloit. There's an antique mall in Beloit called Roscoe's Antique Mall where a fellow typically sells his pens among others. He had a Rider during one of my visits. I relieved him of it and flipped it on the same trip so I never got a chance to photograph it.

As I recall, it was in fair shape and I believe it did have a Rider imprint including Rockford.

Later, Rider moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan. I did a bit of research in Ann Arbor after that transaction. Had I known more at the time, I might have been tempted to keep it. The results of my research ended up pretty close to home. JG Rider evolved into Riders Hobbies somewhere around WWII and is still in business today. My dad buys his RC Airplane supplies from them.

Mike Kirk

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#15 philm

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

I've been there on business many times, Phil. I actually did stumble on a JG Rider there. Well, actually a few miles north in Beloit. There's an antique mall in Beloit called Roscoe's Antique Mall where a fellow typically sells his pens among others. He had a Rider during one of my visits. I relieved him of it and flipped it on the same trip so I never got a chance to photograph it.

As I recall, it was in fair shape and I believe it did have a Rider imprint including Rockford.

Later, Rider moved to Ann Arbor, Michigan. I did a bit of research in Ann Arbor after that transaction. Had I known more at the time, I might have been tempted to keep it. The results of my research ended up pretty close to home. JG Rider evolved into Riders Hobbies somewhere around WWII and is still in business today. My dad buys his RC Airplane supplies from them.


Mike,

Thanks for the history of Rider. I had never heard the connection with Riders Hobbies and am glad you enlightened me. I did drive through there and actually stayed overnight on Monday night, but had to leave early to get back here to MN for a meeting ~ thus no pen hunt this trip. Thanks for the Beloit tip also..

Phil




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