Jump to content


Photo

De Luxe nibs in Black&Pearl (Imperial/DeLuxe/Moderne) Pens + clip patent imprint

Duofold Black&Pearl DeLuxe Moderne Imperial

  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 MacKozinsky

MacKozinsky

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • LocationPoland, Warsaw

Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:43 PM

Hello, Witajcie

 

I've been looking for a nice 10 dollar Black&Pearl 1928-1933 (?) Senior pen and noticed two things, that I couldn't find a reasonable answer by myself. :rolleyes:

Namely:

 

1. Is there any particular period when said pens, named Imperial or De Luxe and Moderne --- Pearl and Ebony or Black and Pearl --- were featuring nibs imprinted Parker Duofold Deluxe? Would such a nib be considered a correct one in a streamlined Black and Pearl? Should this DeLuxe or De Luxe nib imprint be associated with the marketing name for those pens and therefore with Black and Pearl pens only? Where such nibs also used for "wide cap band", earlier Duofolds?

 

Also, can a serial number on a Duofold DeLuxe nib be associated with a certain year or a number of year? With Sheaffer practice of putting serial numbers on Lifetime nibs already in place in 1928 would 1928 or 1929 be a reasonable guess for Parker also?

 

2. Is there any particular date when Parker stopped imprinting its Duofold clips with the 1916 patent date? Is such a patent marked clip on, say, Streamlined Duofold, a normal, regular situation? Maybe it's different across the model ranges?

 

I only have access to some of the 1928-1933 catalogs and found only 2 or 3 adverts showing black and pearl, but never a DeLuxe nib nor a Pat. Sep. 5-16. clip imprint. Which proves nothing but also leaves me with no answer I could easily find and for the lack of 1929 catalog I can't even say when streamlined Black&Pearls appeared (and transitional models with "old-style" cap) ... 1929 I guess? :huh:

 

I also tried searching for any threads regarding Black and Pearl, DeLuxe or clip imprint here and at FPN but to no avail. But I do realize that, where such important info might appear has nothing to do with the thread topic or main content, so if the answers to my questions were covered somewhere already, and you might know where it is, please direct me ... :)

 

Thanks in advance for any info,

Regards,

Maciek


Edited by MacKozinsky, 15 September 2014 - 11:45 PM.

The fundamental substance is air. The soul is air; fire is rarefied air; when condensed, air becomes first water, then if further condensed, earth, and finally stone...


#2 John Danza

John Danza

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 909 posts

Posted 16 September 2014 - 03:28 AM

I'll take a run at the first reply, although it's been a few years since I've collected Duofolds. I still have a number of them in the daily rotation however, and I do have my Duofold book handy.

 

The name Imperial/Deluxe/Moderne was primarily marketing hyperbole. There was no imprinting of barrels using these terms. The nibs were imprinted initially with "Deluxe" and then a number was added afterwards. The Duofold book attributes the "Deluxe" imprint to 1928 with the introduction of the Pearl and Black, and the number introduced around 1931. Both were gone by 1934. Given this date range, you would find the "Deluxe" imprint on flattops and streamlined pens, but the numbered nibs were introduced two years after the ceasing of production of the flattops. They certainly could show up on pens assembled from left-over parts in the mid-to-late 1930s, but this would be an aberration and not part of the normal timeline.

 

The patent date on the clips is definitely found on streamlined pens. The patent was awarded in 1916 (the 1915 date on some clips being a mistake in manufacturing, IMHO) and it expired in 1933. You can likely look at that date as a line in the sand for the imprint, as there wouldn't have been much of a reason to put it on there after the patent had expired. With the feather clip coming on with the Golden Arrow in 1932, there was no place to imprint the patent date on that clip anyway. So I would swag the date of the patent date on the clip going away as about 1932-1933.

 

I think that covers it. If I forgot something, please let me know.



John Danza


"Positive attitude makes for good decisions, but bad decisions make for great stories."

 

 

6080b6b0-840c-4c9c-aea6-5fb1f5d30e96_zps

 


#3 MacKozinsky

MacKozinsky

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • LocationPoland, Warsaw

Posted 16 September 2014 - 12:08 PM

Mighty thanks John, for a detailed explanation and referring to all the important facts. I really appreciate your answer especially that is comes from a seasoned fountain pen aficionado. :)

 

A friend allowed me to browse through the Duofold Book and as much as I respect the research work done by the authors and enjoy the flow of narration and often gripping histories, I often miss an explanation or justification, a document reference list (or even a separate book with reference materials). Or a time-line more detailed that the info already included in the book.

 

Given the reality of any product manufacturing, advertising and selling process, establishing the exact dates (like introduction, certain modifications, ending) or facts (like what is a regular catalogue offer, off-catalogue but still regular just not trendy or promoted, not-out-of-the-box special order, jewellers' ... and so on ...) usually requires breaking down the process to distinguish e.g. between the first pen in a shop (sometimes only a test batch in limited number of shops, before a start of an advertising campaign), a regular offer and phasing out plus using up spare parts (also in transitional pens). And often every new answer brings two more questions. So, for many it's certainly a trivial way to pursuit one's happiness :wub: (and a "Trivial Pursuit" in some way to).

 

Knowing all that, I still can't help myself but to try do get to the bottom of it every single time :rolleyes: :huh:, so any fact or line, even one drawn in the sand, helps a lot.

 

I would be grateful for any picture of Black and Pearl Parker Duofold with a DeLuxe nib for comparison. It may not bring definite answers but I'm sure it may be interesting even without :P :D the Canadian production.

Here is an example of a pen in question with 1934 imprint at David Nishimura website: http://www.vintagepe...?id=6906&pics=5 Obviously, when it was produced, assembled, sold and engraved might be 4 more or less distant dates.

 

Thanks again and hope to see and learn even more :rolleyes:

Regards,

Maciek


The fundamental substance is air. The soul is air; fire is rarefied air; when condensed, air becomes first water, then if further condensed, earth, and finally stone...


#4 John Danza

John Danza

    ADVISOR

  • ADVISORS
  • 909 posts

Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:48 PM

Hi Maciek,

 

Getting some things more narrowed down can be an adventure in this hobby because of overlaps in manufacturing, marketing hyperbole getting ahead of shipments, etc. We're also dealing with items that were usually heavily used when new because they were tools to the original owners, not just interesting collectibles to folks like you and me, so repairs and parts replacements were commonplace.

 

I would hesitate to date a production process from an inscription such as on the pen that David Nishimura has because that date was a gift inscription to the owner. We have no idea how long that pen sat on the dealer's shelf before it was purchased and engraved. That pen and pencil set was relatively expensive in 1934, when the Depression was raging. I would be it sat for quite a while before being bought as a special occasion gift.

 

As to the Duofold book, I understand your comments about references. The book does leave some questions unanswered. But the one thing it has going for it that other reference books don't is that the authors had access to the Parker Archives when they were writing the book. If the Archives were the reference source, I don't think it's possible to come up with a more trustworthy verification source.



John Danza


"Positive attitude makes for good decisions, but bad decisions make for great stories."

 

 

6080b6b0-840c-4c9c-aea6-5fb1f5d30e96_zps

 


#5 Rick Krantz

Rick Krantz

    ADVISOR

  • Members
  • 910 posts
  • LocationEphrata PA

Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:06 PM

hey................

 

didn't some of the early duofold deluxe in black and pearl have an extra trim band at top of the cap (around the washer clip? ) 

 

just thinking

 

I got a 1930 duofold streamlined in pearl and black with a deluxe nib in it

 

color is typical disclolored, but it was my FIRST duofold senior from around 1994. I bought it at auction, paid $80, it was missing the blind cap. Kinda cool, had it for 20 years now



#6 Procyon

Procyon

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 725 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 17 September 2014 - 12:33 AM

Rick, only the flat top Duofold Deluxe in Black and Pearl had the extra band. It has a cut-out so that it fits over the clip. I will try to take some pictures tomorrow to show Maciek some of the things he asked about, and maybe I will take off the band.  On the other hand, maybe I won't because the thing is kind of flimsy, and I had trouble getting it back on the last time I did it. Should have taken some pictures then, but didn't think of it. It is often missing on the pens you come across today - it was easy to break and bend, and a lot of repair people probably thought it was superfluous. 



Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan


#7 Procyon

Procyon

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 725 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:25 PM

Maciek,

 

I took some pictures of my Dufold Deluxes.  I think John probably answered your questions, but maybe the pictures will help some. I believe the term "Moderne" applied more to the pattern/color. The term "Deluxe" was more of a model type. Deluxe pens had been made before the Moderne colors came out - those were the red and black large cap band pens. I have never seen the term "Imperial" used for any of these pens, although it was used later for Vacs.

 

Not including the wide cap band Deluxes, there were three colors: Black & Pearl, Green & Pearl, and Pearl Green & Black - the latter often called "Sea Green Pearl" by collectors. The Black & Pearl was made in Flat-top and Streamline pens. The other two colors only in Streamline. The flat-top B&P had an extra band around the top of the cap. The streamline pens all had 3 lower cap bands. The B&P and the G&P were made with 3 equal cap bands, and all colors were made with the thin-wide-thin cap band configuration. The Sea Green Pearl came only with the t-w-t cap bands.

 

This shows the flat-top and streamline B&P.

 

gallery_6983_116_192113.jpg

 

 

 

 

This shows the nibs of the B&P pens that have 3 equal bands at bottom of cap.  They all have Deluxe nibs with no number plus patent date on clip.

 

gallery_6983_116_159951.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a picture of a streamline B&P pen.

 

gallery_6983_116_138156.jpg

 

 

 

 

Here are all three colors in the t-w-t band configuration, making them 1934+ pens. The  B&P pen has a Deluxe nib WITH number, the G&P has an Arrow nib, and the Sea Green Pearl has nib only marked Parker Pen  Made in USA   8.  Some people contend the Arrow nib is correct for later streamlines - I don't know for sure. None of these pens have patent dates on the clip.

 

gallery_6983_116_4122.jpg


Edited by Procyon, 17 September 2014 - 06:32 PM.


Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan


#8 Procyon

Procyon

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 725 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:39 PM

Rick,

 

I took some shots of my Duofold Deluxe trying to show the extra cap band at the top of the cap.  It is a separate ring that fits around the usual clip.  Once off the clip it is sort of hard to get back on, so I didn't try to take it off. Here is the pen, shown with a streamline pen for camparison.

 

gallery_6983_116_192113.jpg

 

 

Here is a close-up of the clip with band attached.

 

gallery_6983_116_68807.jpg



Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan


#9 MacKozinsky

MacKozinsky

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • LocationPoland, Warsaw

Posted 17 September 2014 - 07:40 PM

Thank you Gentlemen! Explanation supported by discussion and photos makes for a very informative (and entertaining  ) answer. I kept wondering, looking at the catalog drawings, where is the discussed extra band ... :huh: Thanks for showing me the Green and Pearl - truly enchanting  :)  Although it's B&P with ambering that makes my heart melt and my mouth water :wub:.

 

Is the nib imprint in the second picture, with 3 B&Ps, the same for every nib? The middle one seems not to have "Made in USA" part ....

 

And the imprint on streamline pens is of one kind? Missing "Lucky Curve" part and comprised of:

 

Geo.S.Parker   PARKER     MADE IN U.S.A.    ???

                        DUOFOLD

 

 

Once again:

 

2b474c010f27569e.jpg

 

And All the best,

Maciek

 

PS.: When it arrives I shall ad a photo or two of my own B&P Senior Streamline :D (DeLuxe nib - check, Patent imprint clip - check). Now I just need a Flat-top :rolleyes:

 

PS2.: One last thing - Transitional Duofolds, flat-top cap on streamline barrel, were a genuine "factory" combination, like Sheaffer Half-Balance? Can't see such option in 1929 and 1930 catalogs ... The threads are allowing for such a mix?


Edited by MacKozinsky, 17 September 2014 - 07:40 PM.

The fundamental substance is air. The soul is air; fire is rarefied air; when condensed, air becomes first water, then if further condensed, earth, and finally stone...


#10 Procyon

Procyon

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 725 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 17 September 2014 - 08:13 PM

Hi Maciek,

 

To try and answer your questions:

 

As to the nib imprint - the second nib does say Made in USA, but it is all on one line, and the imprint on this nib isn't as deep as the others - making it hard to see. The other two nibs have it broken into two lines. I should have cleaned the nib on the flat-top before photographing - sorry.

 

There seem to be two different barrel imprints. I think the one you have written out is the later one, since it is on the t-w-t banded pens, as well as some of the others.  Apparently, the earlier imprint is

 

GEO. S. PARKER  DUOFOLD     MADE IN U.S.A.

                                PATENTED

 

 

I have never heard of a transitional Duofold, with part streamline and part flat-top.  The Sheaffer's like that are apparently correct (in fact, I have one), but I think the Parker's would be simply a Franken-pen.  The threads are the same, so you can exchange caps for the two types.



Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan


#11 MacKozinsky

MacKozinsky

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts
  • LocationPoland, Warsaw

Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:15 PM

Thanks again Allan :-)

 

As for the "transitional" I couldn't recall for a few days where did I get that idea from or was it just and online auction description ... But I have found it. The passage below comes from here: http://www.parkerpens.net/duofold.html - a Tony Fischier website.

 

 

In 1929, just as the stock market crash occured, the complete line was re-designed as the pens became shorter and tapered in both ends, often referred to as "streamlined" Duofolds.
Transitional models are very common, usually a 1928-style cap on a 1929 style streamline body. Some was actually refitted and ground down by Parker, others sold as desk sets, with the old 1928 caps complimentary free of charge.

 

The text also refers to the barrel imprint change, which I've noticed just now. It's a long and very detailed article, but if you type the beginning of the paragraph above in the CRTL+F box, the imprint is discussed only slightly after 1929 changes. The info is based on the "the Duofold" book among other sources.

 

All the best,

Maciek


Edited by MacKozinsky, 22 September 2014 - 01:16 PM.

The fundamental substance is air. The soul is air; fire is rarefied air; when condensed, air becomes first water, then if further condensed, earth, and finally stone...


#12 Procyon

Procyon

    journeyman

  • Members
  • 725 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:29 PM

Interesting.  Now that you remind me of it, I do remember reading that Parker would somehow grind down your flat-top and make it a streamlined pen.  If they actually sold pens mixing the caps and barrels of the two types, I guess there is no way to tell if it was done at the factory or by some guy in Pittsburg with two half-broken pens. Of course, the pen companies weren't thinking about making life easy for pen collectors eighty years in the future.  ;)



Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar.  And doesn't.

 

 

Regards,
Allan






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Duofold, Black&Pearl, DeLuxe, Moderne, Imperial

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users