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WAHL DORIC B&P


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#1 fabbale

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:11 PM

I'm interested to know your opinion about this pen.
I've not seen a lot Wahl in this color and i think that is very beauty.
The box is correct for this item???

Thank

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#2 david i

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:22 PM

I'm interested to know your opinion about this pen.
I've not seen a lot Wahl in this color and i think that is very beauty.
The box is correct for this item???

Thank


Hi fabbale,

That is a special pen. The box is quite charming too.

It is difficult to be exact on the box "correctness" as I have not seen much in way of catalogue page showing box. However, that style of box seems typical to early 1930's pens, and very likely is correct for pen; it is also is a very good box in any case.

I find no surprise that you have not seen many Wahl in this color. This is a very scarce item with significant collector cachet. It is uncatalogued color for Doric, though was used well for flat-top earlier pens and for earlier/overlap Equi-Poised by Wahl. But, never shown for Doric.

Still, the color is recognized for Doric. While I don't hunt Doric as aggressively as some Parker and Sheaffer pens, I do look at every table at pen shows (visited more than 70-80 I'd guess) and have photographed 6000 old pens including some great personal collections. I've seen maybe 4 total pens in this color counting all sizes.

That's a great pen. Thanks for sharing.

Here is one I photographed a few years ago.

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regards

david



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Email: isaacson@frontiernet.net

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#3 fabbale

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 06:37 PM



Thanks David
good news for me.

FB
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#4 David Nishimura

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 06:15 PM

The black and pearl Dorics are indeed rare and uncatalogued.  Collector hearsay is that they were given out as rewards to salemen, perhaps in a manner similar to that of the "Club 51" Parkers.  To my knowledge, however, there is no solid documentation for this.  Perhaps Don Lavin might know the origins of this story.






#5 Don Lavin

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 08:31 PM

  • Congratulations on your find. I am very familiar with this pen having owned this model. This Doric, as has been pointed out, was not a catalog or production item. The plastic is leftover stock from the Deco Band era but Wahl found a way to use the material in a special way - the pens I have seen were given by Wahl to successful salespeople. Most I have seen have an engraving on the barrel with the recipients name. Your pen appears to have only the initials on the clip.
At the Chicago Pen Show a few years ago, one of my pen friends brought one of these pens to the show for show and tell. His story was fantastic. Apparently his pen was given to the Thomas Alva Edison, who was in a hospital just prior to his death in 1931, by a friend of his who acquired the pen from Wahl directly. Edison accepted the pen graciously but never used it. Instead he gave the pen to the Dodge family (yes Dodge automobiles) where the pen remained. In my collecting career of over 40 years I have owned one oversize and one standard size and I have only seen maybe 5 oversize models. So the pen is very scarce if not rare. Don
Don Lavin:

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#6 fabbale

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 10:46 AM

  • Congratulations on your find. I am very familiar with this pen having owned this model. This Doric, as has been pointed out, was not a catalog or production item. The plastic is leftover stock from the Deco Band era but Wahl found a way to use the material in a special way - the pens I have seen were given by Wahl to successful salespeople. Most I have seen have an engraving on the barrel with the recipients name. Your pen appears to have only the initials on the clip.
At the Chicago Pen Show a few years ago, one of my pen friends brought one of these pens to the show for show and tell. His story was fantastic. Apparently his pen was given to the Thomas Alva Edison, who was in a hospital just prior to his death in 1931, by a friend of his who acquired the pen from Wahl directly. Edison accepted the pen graciously but never used it. Instead he gave the pen to the Dodge family (yes Dodge automobiles) where the pen remained. In my collecting career of over 40 years I have owned one oversize and one standard size and I have only seen maybe 5 oversize models. So the pen is very scarce if not rare. Don


Interesting story.
Thanks to you for your opinion.

FB
I buy old Italian fountain pens. If you have some to sell, please send me an email.

#7 simp

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:53 PM

Wow... I didn't know to own a such unique Doric. I know it was a rare color, but not that it was so much rare. Mine has a #9 Adjustable Nib and no engraving and no box. I'll try to take some pictures, but I'm very bad taking photos. What's strange it's to find two of these rare pens in such a short distance in Italy: we both live in Tuscany... Simone
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#8 fabbale

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 04:59 PM

Wow... I didn't know to own a such unique Doric. I know it was a rare color, but not that it was so much rare. Mine has a #9 Adjustable Nib and no engraving and no box. I'll try to take some pictures, but I'm very bad taking photos. What's strange it's to find two of these rare pens in such a short distance in Italy: we both live in Tuscany... Simone



The Power of the Tuscan

Sassicaia wine .... Florentine steak .... extra virgin olive oil ... and now, in the menu also Doric B&P.

American friends are waiting for you in Florence.B)

PS Let me see your Oversize; send me a photo taken at the mobile phone.
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#9 simp

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:44 PM

The Power of the Tuscan

Sassicaia wine .... Florentine steak .... extra virgin olive oil ... and now, in the menu also Doric B&P.

American friends are waiting for you in Florence.B)

PS Let me see your Oversize; send me a photo taken at the mobile phone.


This time no mobile phone, I'm at home and I can use a digital camera...
So here some photos, renmant of many attempt...
Posted Image
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Posted Image

You can also find the full resolution versions at their wiki page, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
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Fountain pen Chronology (need help to improve...)
Old advertisement (needing new ones to enlarge the gallery...)

#10 David Nishimura

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 03:47 PM

This is an instance where provenance would be informative.

If it could be established that several black and pearl Dorics had been found "in the wild" in central Italy, one might hypothesize that, in addition to the examples given in the USA to salesmen, some were used as export models. There are certainly parallels, where production variations not sold in the USA (or distributed in extremely limited numbers) were sent to other countries.

On the other hand, I suspect that with the black and pearl Dorics, there is another backstory.  In the later 1980s and first half of the 1990s, a huge number of vintage US pens made their way to Italy.  Italian collectors were buying nearly every pen they could get their hands on, paying several times the US collector price.  Italian dealers came to US pen shows and bought whole tables of pens at a time; American dealers brought suitcases full of pens to Italy.  In this virtual torrent of pens, some very rare examples were bought without any awareness of their being anything special.  To give just one example, I remember selling a bandless Duofold Senior to a dealer in Rome who happily paid my asking price, but then asked if a band could be put on it!  At least I spoke Italian, and could explain why this was not a good idea, but most of the foreign sellers active in Italy didn't speak much Italian at all.  It seems most likely that the black and pearl Dorics under discussion came to Italy under similar circumstances, some 15-20 years ago



#11 fabbale

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:38 PM

This is an instance where provenance would be informative.

If it could be established that several black and pearl Dorics had been found "in the wild" in central Italy, one might hypothesize that, in addition to the examples given in the USA to salesmen, some were used as export models. There are certainly parallels, where production variations not sold in the USA (or distributed in extremely limited numbers) were sent to other countries.

On the other hand, I suspect that with the black and pearl Dorics, there is another backstory. In the later 1980s and first half of the 1990s, a huge number of vintage US pens made their way to Italy. Italian collectors were buying nearly every pen they could get their hands on, paying several times the US collector price. Italian dealers came to US pen shows and bought whole tables of pens at a time; American dealers brought suitcases full of pens to Italy. In this virtual torrent of pens, some very rare examples were bought without any awareness of their being anything special. To give just one example, I remember selling a bandless Duofold Senior to a dealer in Rome who happily paid my asking price, but then asked if a band could be put on it! At least I spoke Italian, and could explain why this was not a good idea, but most of the foreign sellers active in Italy didn't speak much Italian at all. It seems most likely that the black and pearl Dorics under discussion came to Italy under similar circumstances, some 15-20 years ago



Hello David, interesting what you say. Among other things, I bought you some pens during a Pen Show in Siena can not remember on what date. Were you one that came with suitcases full of pens??B)
I buy old Italian fountain pens. If you have some to sell, please send me an email.

#12 fabbale

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 02:39 PM

This time no mobile phone, I'm at home and I can use a digital camera...
So here some photos, renmant of many attempt...
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

You can also find the full resolution versions at their wiki page, here, here, here, here, here, here and here


Wooooooow Simone.
This is a great surprise!!!

FB
I buy old Italian fountain pens. If you have some to sell, please send me an email.

#13 simp

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 03:11 PM

This is an instance where provenance would be informative.

If it could be established that several black and pearl Dorics had been found "in the wild" in central Italy, one might hypothesize that, in addition to the examples given in the USA to salesmen, some were used as export models. There are certainly parallels, where production variations not sold in the USA (or distributed in extremely limited numbers) were sent to other countries.

On the other hand, I suspect that with the black and pearl Dorics, there is another backstory. In the later 1980s and first half of the 1990s, a huge number of vintage US pens made their way to Italy. Italian collectors were buying nearly every pen they could get their hands on, paying several times the US collector price. Italian dealers came to US pen shows and bought whole tables of pens at a time; American dealers brought suitcases full of pens to Italy. In this virtual torrent of pens, some very rare examples were bought without any awareness of their being anything special. To give just one example, I remember selling a bandless Duofold Senior to a dealer in Rome who happily paid my asking price, but then asked if a band could be put on it! At least I spoke Italian, and could explain why this was not a good idea, but most of the foreign sellers active in Italy didn't speak much Italian at all. It seems most likely that the black and pearl Dorics under discussion came to Italy under similar circumstances, some 15-20 years ago

I cannot be sure, but your second hypothesis is most probably the right one. I got mine at the 2008 Florence Pen Show by an italian seller, and he is know to buy lot of pens in the USA. I'll ask about the pen next time I'll see him but probably he is one of those people you are talking about.

Regards
Simone
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#14 simp

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 03:46 PM

Wooooooow Simone.
This is a great surprise!!!

FB

What's a surprise?

I can use a digital camera! Results are not so good, but are surely better than those obtained by a mobile phone.

Simone
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#15 Hugh

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:34 PM

My feeling is that if the pen had been exported to Europe for sale by Wahl the nib would most likely be 18ct US made. David N. is probably close to the mark, anyway there's little doubt in my mind the pen wasn't sold new in Italy.

Regards
Hugh
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#16 David Nishimura

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:37 AM

Hello David, interesting what you say. Among other things, I bought you some pens during a Pen Show in Siena can not remember on what date. Were you one that came with suitcases full of pens??B)

Siena was '92, I think.  Maybe '93.  And I only brought one suitcase. . . .







#17 David Nishimura

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:41 AM

My feeling is that if the pen had been exported to Europe for sale by Wahl the nib would most likely be 18ct US made. David N. is probably close to the mark, anyway there's little doubt in my mind the pen wasn't sold new in Italy.


18K nibs were pretty much only for export to France.  Pens exported to Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Spain all carried 14K nibs, which were the norm in those countries.

#18 Hugh

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:56 AM

18K nibs were pretty much only for export to France. Pens exported to Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Spain all carried 14K nibs, which were the norm in those countries.



Hi David,

My Whal Doric with an 18ct nib was bought new in Australia, a present for my mother in the mid-1930's. Why I'm not sure as 14ct would have been sufficient for us Aussies, it's the only 18ct I've come across ( an adjustable as well, no.3 on a junior). Strange things happen!!....in this case anyway.

Regards
Hugh
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#19 simp

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 10:00 PM

18K nibs were pretty much only for export to France. Pens exported to Great Britain, Germany, Italy, Scandinavia, and Spain all carried 14K nibs, which were the norm in those countries.


I read somewhere that 18k was almost an obligation in France, at least if you would call an item as made of gold (there was some sort of trade rule, but I could not get any reference, and it would be nice to have one). Also Montblanc and Pelikan had 18K nibs for french export. I'm quite sure that at least in Italy such a rule did not exist.

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