18 replies to this topic

[marcshiman]

A week or so ago, I was outbid on two auctions, both with the same (reputable) seller, both Conklin Nozacs. Basically I was the second highest bidder on both, so the winning bid trumped mine by $5 for each auction.

 

This morning I received 2nd chance offers on both. Apparently the winning buyer had zero feedback and bailed out on the sale. I was offered the pens at my maximum bids.

 

I said "no" - because the next highest bids were between $60 and $80 less than my maximum. Had the zero feedback bidder not jumped in, I would have won those auctions for much less. 

 

I feel I'm in the right to have offered much less (closer to what I would have paid). She might ultimately decide not to accept, that's her right. But I don't think I should have to pay my maximum because someone without any intent (or means) to pay exposed my maximum.

 

I am NOT assuming that the seller put in a shill bid. I've bought from her before and I've been satisfied.

 

 

 

 

[vintage penman]

It could have happened ... desperate times need desperate measures.

[Paul M]

I have wrestled with this concept before and concluded that your argument is not sound.

 

Lets assume that there were 5 interested parties, all being typical ebay Fountain Pen Fiends (i.e. they keep their powder dry until the last second). They were all waiting for the second hand to count down, seeing only the early bidding antic of a couple of ebay newbies.

 

You fire in your $99 bid, immediately followed by the winner who fires in $220, winning the item at $100.

 

Now the other three interested parties happen to bid $98, $97.50 and $97 simultaneously with the eventual winner and a fraction of a second after you, But these would not have registered as they were below the bid already received (yours).

 

Therefore the record will show only the early bidder ($60 below you) your bid, and the eventual winner. 

 

I understand your stance, and also understand the sellers viewpoint. Therefore as a general rule I neither accept or offer a second chance offer.

[marcshiman]

@paul, so your argument is that with sniping, not all of the bids registered. Fair.

But... Should I refuse the 2nd chance offer, she won't go to those unregistered bids either. She would have to go to the 3rd registered bid, in this case $60.

But I take your point that someone else might have wanted to bid higher, it's just that there is no way to know.

[david i]

A week or so ago, I was outbid on two auctions, both with the same (reputable) seller, both Conklin Nozacs. Basically I was the second highest bidder on both, so the winning bid trumped mine by $5 for each auction.

 

This morning I received 2nd chance offers on both. Apparently the winning buyer had zero feedback and bailed out on the sale. I was offered the pens at my maximum bids.

 

I said "no" - because the next highest bids were between $60 and $80 less than my maximum. Had the zero feedback bidder not jumped in, I would have won those auctions for much less. 

 

I feel I'm in the right to have offered much less (closer to what I would have paid). She might ultimately decide not to accept, that's her right. But I don't think I should have to pay my maximum because someone without any intent (or means) to pay exposed my maximum.

 

I am NOT assuming that the seller put in a shill bid. I've bought from her before and I've been satisfied.

 

I've long done the same as you.  My high bid showing  would have been one increment above the third bidder, not one increment below the winning bidder, had a dysfunctional (define as one will) bidder not been in play.

 

regards

 

d

[Procyon]

Marc,

I have done what you suggest a couple of times.  Paul M makes a good point, but there really is no way to find out the existence of other bidders who don't appear in the bid history. Like you say, the seller doesn't really have to accept your offer.

[penpalace]

I've done the same as both Allan and yourself Marc. If your the underbidder and the third bidder in line bid far less then yes there is the possibility that some bids were not registered based on the bid of the winning bidder but I suppose every time something like this comes up I think long and hard to make sure I want to pass up on the pen at the offered buy it now price.

 

I know the seller and the pens, can't remember how high they went but they both looked like good examples and I think I bid on at least one of them but was unsuccessful.

 

Pearce.

[Widget]

I think you need to forget the 'what ifs' and decide if the 2nd chance offer is a good price ie could you sell at a profit or do you really want the pens. If yes buy them if no kindly refuse.

[marcshiman]

Widget, I think you are exactly right, and this is a discussion of "what's fair?". Effectively, I'm willing to pay more than anyone else who had the intent and/or means to buy this pen (setting aside the possibility for the moment that someone else's bid did not register). Am I willing to pay 20% more because someone without that intent exposed my maximum? No. I don't think that's fair.  

 

As far as "selling it at a profit", if nobody is willing to pay more than me for the pens when I bought them, how much profit would there be in selling the pens if I paid a 20-25% premium? 

Edited by marcshiman, 04 December 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Peterg]

I'm totally with you marcshiman. Unless I am desperate for the pen I will only offer a small increment over the previous highest price because if the winning bid had not been made that is what I would have won the pen for.

 

Paul's un recorded bids are unknown unknowns.

Edited by Peterg, 04 December 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[BamaPen]

A different point of view might be...why did you offer your maximum bid if you are not willing to pay that much for the pen?  Suppose your maximum had been $5 over the second bid and you had won the auction,  then you would have been committed to paying your max.

John

[marcshiman]

Suppose your maximum had been $5 over the second bid and you had won the auction.

 

 

But there wasn't. Had there been, I'd pay the maximum.

[Peterg]

So E-bay should sell at the highest price people will pay?

 

Good for the seller but not so good for the buyer.

[david i]

A different point of view might be...why did you offer your maximum bid if you are not willing to pay that much for the pen?  Suppose your maximum had been $5 over the second bid and you had won the auction,  then you would have been committed to paying your max.

John

 

Hi might be willing to, but he might not choose to, as choices are impacted sometimes by context.  Even if the pen were-- in academic setting, in discussion amongst collectors-- "worth" a certain amount, many of us bid on pens we can be content to win but not desperate to win, especially pens for stock, not the "I've waited 15 years to find this one variant" pen.  Once monkey business is in play with the auction, doubt about the integrity of the process, the pen's appeal can drop, despite theoretical values.

 

regards

 

-david

[Procyon]

I am always willing to pay my maximum bid - but I often hope that I don't have to.  There is a bit of a gambling element - but hey, that is part of the game.

[Mike Hosea]

A different point of view might be...why did you offer your maximum bid if you are not willing to pay that much for the pen?  Suppose your maximum had been $5 over the second bid and you had won the auction,  then you would have been committed to paying your max.

 

True, but the auction itself, having been completed, adds to the total information you have to work with as a buyer.  The maximum bid was formulated with less information, and if the new data suggests that the maximum was too high, leaving it at the same level may not make sense.  If you've just gotta have it, then maybe it doesn't matter, but it doesn't sound like that's the case here. It cuts both ways, and usually it cuts the other way, i.e. when you lose and don't get a second chance.  Then you have to assimilate that info and decide whether you want to adjust your maximum upwards on the next try.  It's the flip side of the coin.  

[Greg Minuskin]

I avoid eBay because of the fees for the seller; it is all about the buyer to the executives of eBay. eBay has now entered, what they call in business the "Sunset" of its business model, and as others realize that eBay has become more like Amazon, but with bidding. Vintage/collectables will be offered once again at shows, meetings, and on private websites, where the seller has a more intimate connection to the buyer, and that the goods in question can be personally inspected, or in the case of on line purchases, the buyer and seller can engage in a more direct, uncontrolled dialogue between themselves, without the metteling of 3rd party facilitators who take their "cut" as a so called "referee" who mostly calls the ball on the buyer's side.

 

Greg Minuskin

www.gregminuskin.com

greg@gregminuskin.com

Edited by Greg Minuskin, 12 December 2014 - 03:18 PM.

[Roger W.]

I understand why you want the pen for the lower amount but, that you got a chance at the pen and declined shows in the end that you don't want the pen all that bad in the first place otherwise BamaPen is right that you were willing to pay more then and you don't want to pay it now.  I've only ever had second chance offers a couple of times in hundreds of things I've bid on so I can't really tell you so much what I would do as it has come up so rarely but, it would depend on how much I really wanted the pen.  There is also how available is a particular item - is it a commodity or is it scarce possibly unique?  If you can get it anytime and are willing to wait for the next one passing is not a big deal.  I just got a beat up Sheaffer base as I've not seen that model before.  Normally I would have passed on condition but it is fairly scarce and I might not see another in the next ten to fifteen years.  In the end it is how badly did you want the pens - if you passed not that badly.

 

Roger W.

[Peterg]

In my case once I offered the full price once even though it was a fair bit over the lower offer, because I really wanted it.

 

In most cases I offer a bit over the lower offer, explaining why. Usually it is accepted but in a couple of cases it wasn't.

 

As said, most pens I want I can live without, but on the odd occasion I REALLY WANT IT!