214 replies to this topic

[BrianMcQueen]

Reaper,

If you're paying $300 for Black 51s with the wrong blind cap, I'll sell you every one of mine.

 

But really the issue here is false advertisement.  By omitting the fact that the blind caps are reproductions, he leads the buyers into believing that they're authentic.  In fact, in the pen that was purchased and relisted, the seller even said "100% Original"

 

Maybe the original seller believed them to be original.  He may have been fooled by another previous seller some time ago.

[Reaper]

Look I have gotten taken before.. And I would have to hold it in my hands to really speak on it.. And I said with the original un jeweled blind cap that set is worth 300 - 350 .. and Yes I agree the tassie is wrong, and like you said maybe that person did not know it.. But the re list for 650 BIN!!!! I looked thru their ebay store and they sell Alot of Fountain pens!

[Reaper]

Brian its only fair to show the re listed post also.. The buyer who re listed is not a new seller looks like they move a lot of merchandise..

 

Brand: Parker

Model: 51

Condition: Mint, Never been inked * red ball seen in filler unit 

Very rare 1944 2nd Qrt Parker 51 14K GF fountain pen and pencil set .

1/10 14K Gold Filled Chevron bands . 

Double Jewel ,Blue diamond 

14K Gold fine Nib 

NO initials, USA Made.

Restored , ready for ink 

Pencil takes 0.09mm lead 

Parker  51 box included  

 

[david i]

Look I have gotten taken before.. And I would have to hold it in my hands to really speak on it.. And I said with the original un jeweled blind cap that set is worth 300 - 350 .. and Yes I agree the tassie is wrong, and like you said maybe that person did not know it.. But the re list for 650 BIN!!!! I looked thru their ebay store and they sell Alot of Fountain pens!

I might be misreading, but I'd view an ebay single jewel set as $100-200, assuming clean.

 

regards

 

d

[BrianMcQueen]

I agree that a 650 BIN was outrageous on the re-list.  But, if the guy who listed it for 650 truly thought it was a mint set (as was claimed by the original seller, and then again by the second one) then 650 seems a little more reasonable.

[BrianMcQueen]

No matter what the second seller knew or didn't know about the pen when he first listed it, he removed it as soon as he was informed of the reproduction parts.  That was the right move on his part. 

 

Not everyone can know everything about every pen.  And that's the danger.  A person can easily, without knowing, buy a misrepresented pen or misrepresent one of his own pens that he's selling.  This is just a good cautionary tale for buyers.  Know what you are buying before you buy it.

[Reaper]

Yes Brian it is.. But in my opinion the $650 BIN is ridiculous.. with the blind cap obviously being wrong for the 51.. and Dave its all in the caps.. i have the same caps on a DJ set in black with 14K Trim and a single Jewel set.. 1945 & 1944 and as a collector would not let the single jewel set go for anything less than $300..

[Reaper]

Vintage Parker 51 1948 Double Jewel 18 K GF Cap Buckskin Beige Tan Fountain Pen

 

eBay is full of people that don't know what they are buying or selling this pen missing the top jewel sold for $305.. the seller says 18K gold fill? How will the buyer feel when they see 1/8 16K Gold Filled on the cap?

[Reaper]

 Ebay is full of misleading descriptions.. You all seen the tassie was wrong in the pictures.. a picture is worth a thousand words.. Personally i never go by a description & if the pics are not revealing enough I ask for more.. 

[BrianMcQueen]

-SNIP- How will the buyer feel when they see 1/8 16K Gold Filled on the cap?

 

They probably won't care.

[Reaper]

True that is.. and so it goes.. 

[david i]

$300 for a buckskin set missing a $20 jewel is not a bad deal if the set is clean.

 

regards

 

d

[Reaper]

i got a couple with the jewel intact if you are interested? In the Box, & Matching pencil! 

Edited by Reaper, 17 April 2015 - 08:43 PM.

[david i]

Oh i might have a dozen.  Working toward another 250-400 pen Parker 51 offering at Vacumania one of these decades. I can buy nice 51's, but generally at fair wholesale.

 

regards

 

david

[david i]

Yes Brian it is.. But in my opinion the $650 BIN is ridiculous.. with the blind cap obviously being wrong for the 51.. and Dave its all in the caps.. i have the same caps on a DJ set in black with 14K Trim and a single Jewel set.. 1945 & 1944 and as a collector would not let the single jewel set go for anything less than $300..

 

Nah. It's not all in the caps.  Caps generally make little difference. The price for relatively entry level pens bumps hugely for double jewel. A single jewel pen with one or another gold filled cap has modest price variation. Adding a gold clip to a common gold-filled cap adds $50 or so. Some caps are better. The window-pane pattern (often with solid gold clip) is a bump, but that one tends to show up anyway with double jewel pens.   A collector would let a single jewel black pen with common gold-filled cap pattern and solid gold clip for less than $200 and often well less if dented.  I've picked them up at shows for $80-100 with gold clip.  If i had a single jewel pen with gold clip, I might replace with gold-filled clip and save the gold clip for a DJ pen that needed one.

[Reaper]

 If i had a single jewel pen with gold clip, I might replace with gold-filled clip and save the gold clip for a DJ pen that needed one.

 

 

Yes Brian it is.. But in my opinion the $650 BIN is ridiculous.. with the blind cap obviously being wrong for the 51.. and Dave its all in the caps.. i have the same caps on a DJ set in black with 14K Trim and a single Jewel set.. 1945 & 1944 and as a collector would not let the single jewel set go for anything less than $300..

 

Nah. It's not all in the caps.  Caps generally make little difference. The price for relatively entry level pens bumps hugely for double jewel. A single jewel pen with one or another gold filled cap has modest price variation. Adding a gold clip to a common gold-filled cap adds $50 or so. Some caps are better. The window-pane pattern (often with solid gold clip) is a bump, but that one tends to show up anyway with double jewel pens.   A collector would let a single jewel black pen with common gold-filled cap pattern and solid gold clip for less than $200 and often well less if dented.  I've picked them up at shows for $80-100 with gold clip.  If i had a single jewel pen with gold clip, I might replace with gold-filled clip and save the gold clip for a DJ pen that needed one.

 

I guess its it's all in the eye of the beholder.. or the collector.. What would be considered valuable to me might not interest you! After all we are talking about Fountain pens which the average person would not think twice to throw out.. there are some caps more sought after & admired than others, DJ or not.. Again I respect your opinion but I disagree.. So changing the clips around is not considered alterations from the original? So I assume all this discussion is just showing what you all know about Parkers and what is acceptable to you all is okay... Again I agree to disagree with you! If the clips were changed in the era they were made then that would be acceptable to me.. So to the original forum subject just tell what it is because the value is in the eye of the beholder! 

Edited by Reaper, 17 April 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[david i]

Hi,

 

I'm not discussing personal preferences. To each his own of course as to what he wants. To each his own even regarding what he personally is willing to pay or wanting to pay; that preference will interact with the market either with success or without.  So be it. Not my point though.    I'm speaking about markets, not individual desires or preferences.

 

Note that I did not say some caps do not receive more attention or value.  I noted that in the entry level for a majority of caps and pens, double jewel vs single jewel overwhelmingly blows away most cap-pattern differences.  This is particularly so within a given metal.   A basic double jewel pen in basic color is worth probably 2.5- 3 fold the value of a basic color single jewel pen (150-250% bonus for true double jewel) on the retail market. Perhaps 4-5 fold on the wholesale market. A basic single jewel pen is unlikely to see 10-20% price variation (not 150-259%) depending on cap pattern... for  most caps within individual  steel, gold-filled, sterling cap-metal categories.  That difference is exaggerated at the wholesale level, as dealers generally must stretch more (still with more per pen cash profit but lower percentage profit) to buy double jewel pens.   This is not preference. This is market.

 

Parker 51 lends itself to greater (but not absolute) flexibility regarding originality than do some series.  Let's take just 1941-48 Vac era, since double jewel is not an issue later.  There are a huge number of caps. Most likely were not made all 8 years, but data tend to be lacking-- with some exceptions--  as to which cap patterns were made in exactly which years. There are hints that can give us a sense of early or late, but those are just hints.

 

Some patterns more often are found with solid gold trim. Recollection is that gold trim was an option. Most often it is found on double jewel pens. Moving a  gold clip from a SJ pen (where it might not be original in any case) to a more appropriate (in recognized collector context) pen is no less original than what might have turned up in the wild.

 

In any case, there is a good chance that when an old 51 trades hands in the modern world, that it already has been subject to swaps.

 

Upshot. Personal value might be in the eye of the beholder. Acknowledged market value is not.

 

Of course I could be making this up, just a wee dabbler n' all. Or, I could be the fellow who has made what might be the largest individual dealer's retail market online for these pen in the history of the hobby, with hundreds of pens offered at once, with years of watching said pens sell, having bought hundreds more at pen shows in order to place on the retail internet market. Or sumthin'....

 

regards

 

david

[Reaper]

David, your big internet sales are not of interest to me.. I am just a little ole collector voicing my personal opinion against you big timers.. I am not trying to compare sizes with you.. I am just stating my preferences, voicing my opinion.. If I bought those Parkers on eBay after looking at those pictures I would have had to just take it.. As you said  "In any case, there is a good chance that when an old 51 trades hands in the modern world, that it already has been subject to swaps." Then ALL buyers beware.. and if you purchase something you can visually see then take your medicine.. at least thats how I was brought up!! I don't run and cry about it to the world.. Maybe I am not getting the whole idea here.. Because i could go on eBay and show some other wrongly described Parkers listed all over that sight.. But your the expert you tell me? 

[david i]

Note that whether big internet sales are of interest to anyone, or whether anyone is a big or lil' ol' collector has no bearing on what one likes. It matters when discussing matters of fact, such as markets..  To push the notion further, an imagined first grade student can debate physics with Einstein, and can voice the notion that matters of opinion are matters of opinion, but readers of said discussion likely will value ol' Einstein's views of actual physics more favorably than those of the kid.

 

I also note that besides Straw Man, another danger in discussion is to engage in distracting hyperbole.  

 

All buyers always should beware, but... so what?   Knowledge is power. Skill and knowledge allow collectors to collect... better.  

 

"Crying to the world" seems to be rather tangential.

 

Too, quoting out of context is... unfortunate. I prefaced the notion of "swaps" carefully, specifying that our  hobby lacks perfect knowledge regarding the time of issue of every last 51 cap and thus has greater flexibility in accepting mixes of caps on barrels vs what we see in other series, where unoriginal mixes more readily can be recognized and disfavored.  That does not mean there is no knowledge about 51's or that some swaps are overtly unacceptable... to those who know.

 

Did I tell you I'm "the" expert? I don't believe so.

 

What I am offering is experience and insight into the market for Parker 51's. 

 

No doubt there are wrongly described Parkers on ebay.

 

Learning to collect well involves learning to identify such things.

 

Learning to collect well and learning to identify what is right and wrong with a pen are the core missions of this board.

 

regards

 

-d

[Reaper]

David,  To Be Continued.. I have a couple things to say to the previous words of wisdom from Mr. David.. the guru.. Good night All.. 

Edited by Reaper, 18 April 2015 - 06:16 PM.