89 replies to this topic

[JonSzanto]

And, flippancy aside, I actually did give the PCA a chance to disavow and apologize for Veley's hateful speech. The PCA was not interested.

 

And I think it would be helpful, at this point, and since people like Roger (currently active in the PCA) have spoken up, that we move past casting an entire organization in a bad light by virtue of the words of one person, even if in a leadership (sic) position. It may seem objective to you, David, but the numerous posts and threads regarding all of this, with your and his participation, tends to read like a personal enmity issue. I do believe it is deeper and broader than that, but the constant mention of that one person, in a manner that is a bit unlike you, makes it appear... otherwise. Of course, I hope that isn't the case.

Edited by JonSzanto, 30 June 2015 - 03:59 AM.

[david i]

Hi Jon,

 

I believe no one in this thread has cast an entire organization in a bad light by virtue of one person's words.

 

regards

 

david

[JonSzanto]

Well, I'm sorry then, David, and I don't mean to bash on you. I included your quote, and I really don't see any other way to read it. I'll leave it to others to read as they will.

[david i]

Hi John,

The quote supports my statement.  I would submit you are offering an unduly concrete interpretation.

 

Regards

 

David

[Roger W.]

David;

 

Lord knows I've had my issues with the PCA (or people in it) but, your history is to throw the organization under the bus.  Deny it if you like you won't find a believer in me.  The PCA is your friend when things go your way and it is a bastard when it doesn't.  For me I take the long view that generally it will be a positive force though there are short terms when it is not.  As for the PCA "speaking" to correct an online issue it just ain't geared to do that.  It is very arcane in its movements which perfectly reflects the pen show circuit which is arguably behind the times in many ways.  Many of us like quaint though as we are using fountain pens.  I fixed two PFM's tonight though one's a bit skippy.

 

Roger W. 

[FarmBoy]

David;

 

Lord knows I've had my issues with the PCA (or people in it) but, your history is to throw the organization under the bus.  Deny it if you like you won't find a believer in me.  The PCA is your friend when things go your way and it is a bastard when it doesn't.  For me I take the long view that generally it will be a positive force though there are short terms when it is not.  As for the PCA "speaking" to correct an online issue it just ain't geared to do that.  It is very arcane in its movements which perfectly reflects the pen show circuit which is arguably behind the times in many ways.  Many of us like quaint though as we are using fountain pens.  I fixed two PFM's tonight though one's a bit skippy.

 

Roger W. 

Roger-

 

You need to come to the San Francisco Pen Event...We are changing the times, we have buckle polish.

[david i]

Hi Roger,

 

Actually, using conventional meaning of terms, really it practically and semantically is impossible for me to throw the PCA under the bus.

 

I would note your  "my way" arguments here are what we call Straw Man.  Unfortunate.

 

Nonetheless, I have my opinions, and I believe they are based on solid interpretations of issues, some of which you know. Some, perhaps not.

 

What the PCA "aint geared to do" of course is not my problem.  Perhaps it is the PCA's problem. Or not. But... no matter. Neither here nor there.

 

I don't joke when noting in midst of busy hospital week. Been using free minutes to help proof the about-to-print Fountain Pen Journal third issue. Traveling for the weekend. Slowly tossing key sentences into a file for further discussion. Next week I likely will have time to outline my views in greater detail.

 

Short term/long term indeed can vary.  I will be a force for change. Or, I will enjoy the process of trying, even while failing. I have failed in things before. . I assume the PCA will enjoy too, so win-win. It's enjoying so far, I'm told.

 

Should be interesting.

 

I do note that I have no obligation to the PCA.

[david i]

I might be able to make SF. Save me table.

[FarmBoy]

I might be able to make SF. Save me table.

Saved...

[Roger W.]

Bringing up strawman - #1 response in the book of "Full of it!"  Unfortunate but, it happens.  I knew I wouldn't win over all with the thought of the PCA being the long game.  At the heart of the PCA is a greater good though people associated with the organization make flawed responses.  Shooting in the foot is a common problem.  Perhaps individuals are good enough to set up sites that will last forever - maybe that will work.  I'm concerned that it will have it's failings and that a PCA is necessary as it is set up to outlive us all.  It's mission is the long game of preserving information.

 

Roger W. 

[david i]

Dammit, Roger, it's not the book of "full of it", it's the "losing debaters manual". Now, I feel sad.

[Rick Krantz]

LDM will be available for purchase at the DC pen show. 

 

so I hear....

 

might be included in your next iOS update, sorta like that U2 album 

[FarmBoy]

LDM will be available for purchase at the DC pen show. 
 
so I hear....
 
might be included in your next iOS update, sorta like that U2 album

I picked up an early first edition in Southern CA earlier in the year. The dedication is priceless.

FB

[Hugh]

Hugh

Do you know Jon Veley?  If not, how do you know his move to PCA editor was an error?  I happen to know both Jon and Paul quite well.  As a matter of fact just got a note from Paul with one of his "Penman" sketches thanking me for a favor I did for him.

I too agree with John Jenkins re the downloading of the data from the PCA website.  Regardless of the "ownership" of the documents John Jenkins and others worked very hard to collate the catalogs and other writings and to just grab them because you can is probably legal but most certainly unethical without their permission.  You may not agree with me but I personally could not care less.  Unlike John I will not stop posting here but I am taking a stand and will be counted among those who deplore this act.  If Dave Armstrong is the guy from Canada, I was looking for him at the Michigan Pen Show last year and wanted to discuss with him his take on those documents.  He did not come in with the group of guys from Canada, who are all first class collectors by the way. 

If this position ostracizes me from this list so be it but it is essential to me that I take a stand.

Jerry

 

Jerry

 

I've had enough to do with Veley on this forum to form an opinion of him, which is simple. He's an arrogant, egotistical arsehole and of course you're free to think otherwise and I couldn't care less either. I joined the PCA to show some support over this ethical issue, you have not followed what I have said on this issue in the past. I can point  you to it if you require  I left because of Veley ( I can also point you to that absurd, rude and incorrect outburst if required)...you want a public face that has no ability to understand the difference between right and wrong behaviour then he's the "go to" guy.

 

I have no doubt John Jenkins worked very hard, my brief interaction with him very pleasant and no doubt he's been very hurt by what's transpired.

 

Still while some may find the way things have unfolded not to their liking the next step is turn it into a positive, which is what the PCA is trying to do and actually using some of my suggestions. On the other hand burdening an organization with the likes of Veley who lacks personal control is stupid. It's not a matter of "liking" or "disliking", it's proven performance or failure and Veley falls falls into the latter.

 

Regards

Hugh

[vintage penman]

Much like Hugh I have found Veley's attitude to the whole affair utterly counter productive. Sufficiently so, that I concluded that membership of the PCA was pretty much a no no at present.

[david i]

I will hit the details more formally next week, really.  And upgrade the download host page at Vacumania.com

 

Paul has had great runs with his Black Pen Society pins.

I've been considering doing a run (nothing to do with Paul or the new mag) of "i QUIT the pca" pins.  Just need an artist or graphics person. Or maybe I can sketch a rough in Photoshop since it will be all letters.

 

I admit it took me 9 months+ to get the download ready. I should be able to do much better with pins.

 

-d

[david i]

And, just to remind everyone, no one here will be 'ostracized' for their viewpoints here on this matter.  Indeed, I'm surprised we haven't heard from Jon Veley, still a member in good standing here. Perhaps the PCA  is keeping him on a leash.

 

-d

[David Nishimura]

I've been considering doing a run (nothing to do with Paul or the new mag) of "i QUIT the pca" pins.  Just need an artist or graphics person. Or maybe I can sketch a rough in Photoshop since it will be all letters.

 

If you are joking, the jest is not in good taste.

Even as a joke, it is a slap in the face to an awful lot of good people -- including many you claim as friends.

[Roger W.]

David;

 

You've done a lot of questionable things in the past but, the pin you suggest is the most childish response I've ever heard from you.  Your take on the PCA is just wrongheaded.  I agree with those that say they have quit for now.  Certainly voting with your membership sends a message that the PCA Board should hear and I'm not guaranteeing that Boards always do hear as some are more enlightened than others but, that is the nature of an elected Board, you don't always get what you want.  David, if you want to change the PCA you could easily get elected to the Board and give the full impact of your input.  Likely you have dozens of excuses why you wouldn't do this.  Primarily it would take away your ability to have these childish outbursts.  I'm saying put up or shut up.

 

Roger W.

[Rick Krantz]

Yeah David, the "I quit the PCA" pin seems a bit over the top of the usual stuff you do. Your time and energies would be well spent into something else. 

 

I am totally not a fan of the PCA, I admit I am friends with most of those involved with the organization, and Roger as librarian, even comes across with a glimmer of new hope for me, in my views of the organization. 

 

but... ouch.....

 

that really is a kick in the balls to a lot of people that do belong to the PCA, put a lot of hard work and time to trying to make it better, that do frequent the board here, and you use their restoration services, and consider friends. 

 

I understand your beef with the PCA, and sure it's not fair, but figure in time, the PCA will figure out what changes they need to make and prosper, or if not, die out. 

 

As I said in the past, it is no concern to me, I am on board with the Journal, so I feel my efforts should be devoted to it's success. 

 

And really, I can't seem to think that you were serious on this, to create a pin, but I betcha there will be many more that sound in on this one.