25 replies to this topic

[david i]

Sheaffer's 1940's fountain pens pose a nontrivial knot, which really only of late have collectors tried in public fashion to loosen.

I won't tangent today expanding on the global challenges offered by that decade.

Figured it was time to peek a bit at the bead band celluloid pens. Vague recollection is that some have cited 11 models, counting full size and Tuckaways. There are triumph nib models, open nib models, white dot and non white dot models. Perhaps we can start at least with images/names. I don't have 'em all and don't know 'em all.

Bringing out feature details, identifying parts mixes. etc.. would be useful.

I have a bunch of bead band pens scattered around the house, but only a couple-few yet imaged.

One feature that catches my eye is that the bead-band pens have plastic threads, unlike the higher-line pens.


1) Below is the Admiral, $5. Non White Dot. #5 Feathertouch open nib. Carmine Celluloid

.

2) ?? Model. White dot Triumph nib. Marine Celluloid. Matching gripping section.

3) Essentially a Junior (Chrome trim on color) ? model name

I'll try to shoot some more next week. Others' images and input appreciated.

-d

[Shadow Wave]

Did Carmine and Roseglow both come with a choice of gold or nickel trim? Was there any price difference?

[david i]

Did Carmine and Roseglow both come with a choice of gold or nickel trim? Was there any price difference?

Hi,

Roseglow was not used for the 1940's pens. Balance was the first and last series to use that color, in the mid-late '30s.

The bead-band pens I believe started production around 1945.

There are several price/trim levels for the bead band pens. I believe all four colors (black, Marine Green, Carmine, along with of course Gray, which had chrome trim on all pens) had the least expensive model done in chrome trim.

regards

David

[matt]

David,

#1 is a late Admiral; these seem to be all LF w/ a Feather Touch 5 nib. Early Admirals came in both vac-fil and LF, but had a shorter "59" Triumph nib. I've got one 59 that is two-tone and one that is monotone (w/ no line incised across the nib to separate the platinum mask and no sign, even on the underside, that is was ever plated), whatever that means. Definitely thinner gold than a "79" nib, both have a bit of flex.

#2 is a Sovereign II. These also came in vac-fil; for some reason, I only have one in black.

#3 is a Cadet, the pen formerly known as Jr.; should have a 23 nib.

<One feature that catches my eye is that the bead-band pens have plastic threads, unlike the higher-line pens.>

Vac-fil bead bands have the metal thread ring, same as the rest of the Sheaffer vac-fil line. Black vac-fil Sovereigns and black Tuckaways have a gold thread ring; the remainder of the vac-fil bead band line has a chrome thread ring, by the way.

But wait, there's more! In late '46-early '47 (Kirchheimer), after which most of the bead band series was discontinued (Kirchheimer), there's a lever-filler Craftsman-33 nib with metal thread ring on the barrel and the section screws into the barrel (triple lead threads, so you can line the nib up w/ the lever). The top half of the section is striped celluloid, the bottom half is a clear plastic. The cap is the same as used on the vac-fil with a metal liner and embossed threads. I don't have a picture, so here is a link to one that sold recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=320554493535

There are others with the striped/clear section lurking out there. Two lever-fill Statesman pens with Triumph nibs, striped/clear sections, and metal thread rings sold recently on ebay.

Daniel gave me the model names in the bead band series, which are summarized as best as I can figure, without model numbers or filler type, below (how the heck can I do this in columns?):


Sovereign II, 5", white dot, Triumph 79 nib, 875 price code, self adjusting clip
Lady Sheaffer II Tuckaway, 4 1/2", ditto

Admiral II, 5", Triumph 59 nib, 500 price code, self-adjusting clip
Milady II (Tuckaway?), 4 1/2"?, ditto

later Admiral, Feather Touch 5 nib

Craftsman II, 5", 33 nib, 350 price code, solid clip
Diana II, 4 1/2"?, ditto

Cadet II, 5", 23 nib, 275 price code, solid clip, chrome trim
Minerva II, 4 1/2"?, ditto

All pencils, including non-grey chrome trim, i.e., Cadet, seem to have self adjusting clips. Gold trim pencils have a 300 price code; chrome trim pencils have a 250 price code. Tuckaway pencils are price coded 350? Don't know about the (shorter?) pencils that would match the Diana and Minerva.

corrections are welcome!!

[david i]

Ya know Matt... I rather enjoy the "details" of collecting, but that list nearly has my head spinning

As I well know from my so-far more thorough study of the post-War celluloid higher-line Sheaffers, the details tend to be brutal. Still, we must start somewhere. I might want to tease away the issue of evolutionary tweaks (to be addressed a bit later) in favor of model/images to start, recognizing these will be laden with caveats.

Also, I am not shocked that some models are available both wire-fill and lever-fill, as Sheaffer had long history by this time of offering both styles in otherwise identical models, starting with Balance (well, really maybe starting with sub-brand VACUUM), including original Crest, War-Years Triumph (heavily weighted to wire-filling), etc. Not sure I've seen any post-war big-boy Valiant as lever filler. So, it seems that rather than surprise (if i follow) that some bead-band models are found with both fillers, maybe I express moderate surprise (or at least interest) that all models don't appear both ways.

Anyway, to add your data to my photos...

1) Below: (text per Matt) Late Admiral; these seem to be all LF w/ a Feather Touch 5 nib. Early Admirals came in both vac-fil and LF, but had a shorter "59" Triumph nib. I've got one 59 that is two-tone and one that is monotone (w/ no line incised across the nib to separate the platinum mask and no sign, even on the underside, that is was ever plated), whatever that means. Definitely thinner gold than a "79" nib, both have a bit of flex.

.

2) Below (text by Matt) Sovereign II. These also came in vac-fil; for some reason,

3) Below: (Text by Matt) Cadet, the pen formerly known as Jr.; should have a 23 nib.

OK. To add to Matt's text and my pics, some questions:


How are we determining "late" vs "early" celluloid bead band, especially if most models ran only year or two (clearly some ran through 1950 or so, as I recall a bead band injection-plastic touchdown variant)?

Admiral (the feather touch #5 nib 500-price code stamp seems to be how I find them) came with Triumph (conical) nib? Really? This is based on finding them with given price code or price/model sticker or literature or...???

Vac-fil bead bands have the metal thread ring, same as the rest of the Sheaffer vac-fil line.

Yet the metal threads made the jump to lever fill pen, "there's a lever-filler Craftsman-33 nib with metal thread rings".

Hmmm. I wonder if that barrel is the same as is found on one or other Sovereign /Statesman (the $8.75 and $10 higher line pens- i often mix up which is which- with open nib vs Triumph nib, respectively).

To break down your final notes, I guess as to paired pens (full size and Tucky) to see if I have this right..

----------------
Full Size: Sovereign II, 5", Triumph 79 nib, 875 price code, self-adjusting clp

Tucky: Lady Sheaffer II Tuckaway, 4 1/2" (? same price code nib as Sovereign II?)


----------------

Full SIze Admiral Triumph 59 nib, 500 price code, self-adjusting clip (?also found "later" with feather touch 5 nib?)

Tucky Milady II (Tuckaway?, 4 1/2"?) Feather Touch 5 (? never found with Triumph nib?)


----------------

Full SIze Craftsman, 33 open nib, 350 price code, solid clip

Tucky Diana II, 4 1/2" (? same nib and price code as Craftsman?)


----------------

Full SIze Cadet, 23 open nib, 275 price code, solid clip, chrome trim



Tucky Minerva II, 4 1/2"? (? same nib and price code as Cadet?)


OK that's 8 pens. Where did we hit 11?

Time to get some pics up. Matt if you have any...

I know I have a couple more models at home besides the three shown earlier. Will try to shoot those my way next week.

regards

david

[matt]

David, my edits are in blue


Ya know Matt... I rather enjoy the "details" of collecting, but that list nearly has my head spinning

As I well know from my so-far more thorough study of the post-War celluloid higher-line Sheaffers, the details tend to be brutal. Still, we must start somewhere. I might want to tease away the issue of evolutionary tweaks (to be addressed a bit later) in favor of model/images to start, recognizing these will be laden with caveats.

Also, I am not shocked that some models are available both wire-fill and lever-fill, as Sheaffer had long history by this time of offering both styles in otherwise identical models, starting with Balance (well, really maybe starting with sub-brand VACUUM), including original Crest, War-Years Triumph (heavily weighted to wire-filling), etc. Not sure I've seen any post-war big-boy Valiant as lever filler. So, it seems that rather than surprise (if i follow) that some bead-band models are found with both fillers, maybe I express moderate surprise (or at least interest) that all models don't appear both ways.

How are we determining "late" vs "early" celluloid bead band, especially if most models ran only year or two (clearly some ran through

1950 or so, as I recall a bead band injection-plastic touchdown variant)?

The half striped/half clear sections I mentioned earler are variations from this list, as are the longitudinally striped black/clear sections that Gerry Berg has found, but briefly:
Early LF = striped section
Late LF = black visulated section
Early VF = striped section, fills directly in the barrel
Late VF = black visulated section, internal filler unit....ignoring the 3 different types of barrel stripes

At any time you feel the need, you may place your index finger against your lower lip and rapidly move it up and down to produce a babbling noise.....

Admiral (the feather touch #5 nib 500-price code stamp seems to be how I find them) came with Triumph (conical) nib? Really? This is based on finding them with given price code or price/model sticker or literature or...???

I have a full size grey LF w/ monotone 59 nib, striped section, 500 price code and a brown full size VF w/ two-tone 59 nib, striped section, 500 price code. Here's one in carmine - no, it's not a Sovereign - but be sure there's nothing in your mouth and you're not holding any hot liquids when you note the price:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...em=220628783517

Yet the metal threads made the jump to lever fill pen, "there's a lever-filler Craftsman-33 nib with metal thread rings".

Hmmm. I wonder if that barrel is the same as is found on one or other Sovereign /Statesman (the $8.75 and $10 higher line pens- i often mix up which is which- with open nib vs Triumph nib, respectively).

quite possible if the section is threaded, not friction fit

To break down your final notes, I guess as to paired pens (full size and Tucky) to see if I have this right..

I've yet to find a Minerva, Diana, or Milady.....so a bit of guessing here.

----------------
Full Size: Sovereign II, 5", Triumph 79 nib, 875 price code, self-adjusting clp
Tuckaway: Lady Sheaffer II 4 1/2" (875 price code 79 nib)

----------------
Full Size Admiral Triumph 59 nib, 500 price code, self-adjusting clip (?also found "later" with feather touch 5 nib? yes, as proven by your photo)
Tuckaway? Milady II, 4 1/2"? (500 price code, presumed to be 59 nib because the only open nib celluloid Tuckaways I've seen have a large Lifetime nib, NON-white dot "Statesman" cap, 875 price code, and internal tube filler (i.e., late))

----------------
Full Size Craftsman, 33 open nib, 350 price code, solid clip
Lady Size? Diana II, 4 1/2"? (33 nib, 350 price code, presumed to have full size clip, analogous to earlier Balance Miss Universe?)

----------------
Full Size Cadet, 23 open nib, 275 price code, solid clip, chrome trim
Lady Size? Minerva II, 4 1/2"? (23 nib, 275 price code, presumed to have full size clip, just shorter than Cadet)

[Gerry Berg]

Sheaffer's 1940's fountain pens pose a nontrivial knot, which really only of late have collectors tried in public fashion to loosen.

I
-d

This is a test

Gerry

[david i]

Matt provided a pic that shows five bead band pens, two price-equivalent pairs (Full size and similar Tuckaway, as well as the low price, chrome-trim Cadet (junior-niche))

Top pair at $8.75 original price includes Sovereign II and matching Tucky, unfortunately named Lady Tuckaway (Sovereign II Tuckaway would have been better name)


Third and fourth pens paired as $5 Admiral (full size) and Milady II (tucky. Again, Admiral Tuckaway might've been more helpful name).


Fifth pen is the chrome-trim Cadet ($2.75)

[david i]

So, it looks like the 1945-1947 celluloid bead band Sheaffer series, itself third tier, had four tiers, based on price point, trim, clip, nib.

Funny, Sheaffer had four tiers of Balance during the prior decade (also with chrome trim at lowest price point). The 1930's for both Sheaffer and Parker saw families of pens below the full range of their respective highline series, Balance and Vacumatic.

Parker had different Parker families below Vacumatic, including Challenger and Parkette (and, i guess, the Duotone), all labelled as Parker.

Sheaffer's 1930's Balance saw a wider range of price points than Vacumatic, and lower line pens were sold under alternative imprints (not marked "Sheaffer's", proper, on barrel) including WASP, VACUUM, VACUUM-Fil, UNIVER, etc.

World War II saw the disappearance of lower line pens by these makers. Indeed, I have an article from a business magazine documenting Parker's phasing out of the low-line pens.

But, with the post-WAR era Sheaffer offered a monstrous number of models and price points, with some overlap of tiers. And, "Tiers' might be a bit blurred, as it seems the most expensive two pens are based on the second size series, so maybe we should call these "Sizes" not "Tiers" , but we can debate that another day.

1. First Tier (largest pens- all Triumph nib)

• $12.50 Valiant
• $15 (larger) Sentinel (or is it Deluxe Sentinel)
• $17.50 (larger) Crest (or is it Crest Deluxe)
• $20 Autograph (? made in larger size during this era)
• Matching Tuckies for most of the above)

2. Second Tier (medium size pens. Triumph nib except as noted)

• $8.75 open nib (?Sovereign)
• $10 Statesman
• $12.50 (smaller) Sentinel
• $15 (smaller) Crest
• $20 (? both sizes made) Autograph
• $50 Crest Masterpiece
• $100 (or is it $125) Masterpiece
• Matching Tuckies for some of the above.

3) Now, bead band pens:

• $2.75 Full size and smaller size (Cadet and Minerva 2) Open nib
• $3.50 Full size and smaller size (Craftsman and Diana II) Open nib
• $5 Admiral Full Size and Lady Sheaffer (Tuckaway) (? open nib later, ? Triumph nib earlier)
• $8.75 Sovereign II Full Size and Milady (Tuckaway) Triumph Nib

Upwards of 20 models with somewhat rough clustering.

This does not count variants on models based on evolution of trim, of nib features, of filling system tweaks (Vac pens with or without internal cartridge), of barrel clarity pattern, etc.

There are many variants to hunt if one wishes to build a complete collection.

-d

[matt]

David,

You labeled my 4th pen as a Milady, based on the short posted length? It has a 33 nib, so is either a Craftsman or Diana. I'm calling it a Craftsman, based on the capped length of 4 7/8" (5" + or - 1/8" seems to be the full length size). Yes, it posts rather short, but the vac-fil Sovereign posts noticeably shorter than the LF Sovereign. The cap threads on a vac-fil cap are much further up in the cap compared to a LF, so it slides on the barrel further before stopping/posting. Vac-fil caps are also a 1/16" shorter than LF caps. Until I actually find one, I have to assume the Diana and Minerva have a 1/2" shorter barrel similar to the Tuckaway (ah, but did they also come in a shorter LF?)

As to your pen prices, you only list the higher 1946 "fine post-war models priced at pre-war levels" prices. The Crest was $15, then $17.50 and the Sentinel went from $12.50 to $15, etc. Hmm, maybe all those pens w/o the price code were sold at the higher price.... Anyone got a Crest w/ a 1750 price code?

Matt

[matt]

A few pictures showing the variety of bead bands available.

Here is a lever fill, Triumph "59" nib Admiral.

By itself, it may not be obvious that the nib is shorter than the typical "79" nib, so here is a shot of the backside (where it's very obvious) of a "59" (top) and "79" (bottom). Yes, that's a factory stub; thank you Luin R Dexter, Rock Island, IL, whoever you were!




Three Tuckaways, all early with transparent stripes in the barrel



And an early-late comparison of two Craftsman vac-fil pens. Note that the early pen has wide transparent stripes in the barrel and the late pen has an opaque barrel with narrow black stripes, same as the cap. You'll need a hand lens and an un-ambered pen, but if you've never noticed this, the wide transparent stripes appear to be black because there is a black layer on one side of each transparent stripe.


[

[david i]

David,

You labeled my 4th pen as a Milady, based on the short posted length? It has a 33 nib, so is either a Craftsman or Diana. I'm calling it a Craftsman, based on the capped length of 4 7/8" (5" + or - 1/8" seems to be the full length size).

Yeah, i think i misperceived #4 down as having a Tucky clip. My bad.

SNIP

As to your pen prices, you only list the higher 1946 "fine post-war models priced at pre-war levels" prices. The Crest was $15, then $17.50 and the Sentinel went from $12.50 to $15, etc. Hmm, maybe all those pens w/o the price code were sold at the higher price.... Anyone got a Crest w/ a 1750 price code?

Matt

For my post-war Prices, I believe I list two prices each for Sentinels and Crests (we're talking 1946-7 pens in celluloid, the Sentinel(s) having the brushed caps), as there seem to be two sizes of each. If there are different names for them (one maybe Sentinel Deluxe vs just Sentinel?) I'm not wholly aware of those differences. I believe I have at home price-imprinted larger and smaller models, $17.5 and $15 for Crest, and $15 and $12.5 for Sentinel. It is not a time-related price change, but size. I lack catalogue data... this is observational. I strongly believe I have fully marked Crest with $17.50 code. Will have to check when home.

regards

david

[david i]

Hi again, Matt.

I might be missing the point of your last post, but again for the 1945-7 celluloid "post War" Sheaffers i do believe the Crest and Sentinel prices reflect not timing but size.

Here is a $15 Crest, smaller pen related in contour to Statesman/Sovereign

And larger $17.50 Crest (contour related to Valiant)

[Kirchh]

...And larger $17.50 Crest (contour related to Valiant)

Nah, that's a $50.00 Crest Masterpiece (which is the smaller size).

--Daniel

[david i]

Nah, that's a $50.00 Crest Masterpiece (which is the smaller size).

--Daniel

True. Eep. Darn solid gold keeps getting in the way. Hate that solid gold.

Will dig up the larger Crest. Must sleep. Still recovering from finding the "best Wahl one can find". But that's a thread for another day...

Anyhoo... Little and Big Sentinel.

-d

[david i]

Getting back to Bead Bands...

Let's integrate prior info into (i hope) digestible bit. Can expand from there if anyone cares to (maybe time to make some charts of the evolutionary tweaks).

So, to tweak my original post:

• Bead band celluloid 1945-1947 (?) Sheaffers have at least four larger pens and four similar trim/nib smaller pens (with two of the smaller pens being Tucky equivalents to larger models, possibly the two lower priced smaller models having still long clip). This yields 8 pens

• I still recall claim of 11 models. Not sure what are the extra three. If we are talking variants (eg. Admiral with Triumph vs open nib, etc) the list presumably would be much longer, factoring in filler-type differences (not even Vac vs Lever, but just Vac-barrel, vs Vac-cartridge, etc)

While all four tiers of bead band pen are all third-tier Sheaffers (happily apparently of first tier quality, but lower price point and positioning), at least one white-dot model is offered: Sovereign II, at $8.75, the entry level price to the next higher tier pens.

Dropping in price then are the $5 Admiral, the $3.50 Craftsman and the $2.75 Cadet, amongst full size pens.

-d

[2manypenz]

I have enjoyed the banter in this thread! I was pulling out Sheaffers shining lights through barrels and comparing nib/barrel/trim combinations....I learned a lot today. Thanks fellas!

[haywoody]

I just got a taste for these pens recently so this has been a very interesting read. I'm going to have to go through it a few times to have a clue what is going on. I do have one minor data point to add:

Vac-fil bead bands have the metal thread ring, same as the rest of the Sheaffer vac-fil line. Black vac-fil Sovereigns and black Tuckaways have a gold thread ring; the remainder of the vac-fil bead band line has a chrome thread ring, by the way.

I have what I believe is a vac-fil Soverign II in brown striated which as gold metal section threads.

David - I'm waiting patiently for the section of your website which covers these pens to come alive.

/Woody

[matt]

I just got a taste for these pens recently so this has been a very interesting read. I'm going to have to go through it a few times to have a clue what is going on. I do have one minor data point to add:



I have what I believe is a vac-fil Soverign II in brown striated which as gold metal section threads.

David - I'm waiting patiently for the section of your website which covers these pens to come alive.

/Woody

I could easily be incorrect since my only vac-fil Sovereign II is black!

Woody, you are correct; I also have a carmine Sovereign vac-fil w/ gold section threads.

[david i]

I have enjoyed the banter in this thread! I was pulling out Sheaffers shining lights through barrels and comparing nib/barrel/trim combinations....I learned a lot today. Thanks fellas!

Our pleasure.

Still... this probably is just the warm-up phase. At least for these third-tier Sheaffers-- Bead Band pens-- we apparently do not have to worry about cap-trim evolution, which is a concern for the first and second tier 1945-7 celluloid Sheaffers.

We have now- more or less- named 8 models of bead band pen, and described basic nib and trim configurations, recognizing some caveats.

Matt did outline some of the following, but when eventually we get around to doing our tables of features, there is still much to sort:

• model name/price/nib
• recognizing that there are price-paired larger and smaller models in each general style (in some cases with full clip on both sizes, on other cases tucky (clasp) clips found on smaller versions)
• fixed vs non-fixed clip. Apparently higher line clip pens have the (spring?) clip. I have to test some pens. The description seems straightforward, but I have not played with the clips on these to see how perceptible is the difference.
• Identifying which models are found both wire-fill and lever fill
• identifying other differences (i believe Matt cited cap length) on wire-fill vs lever-fill variants of otherwise same models.
• Barrel evolution: the clear striped barrel holding ink directly, then the internal cartridge pens apparently with modified clear barrels (partially painted opaque) then fully opaque barrels.
• Identifying potentially correct vs incorrect parts swaps (always important to collectors of old pens who tend to find things in imperfect condition), and weighing the significance (and feasibility) of "wrong" swaps.
• Evolution of other features (eg. nib style)

And all this for 8-11 models made just couple years, all together composing just the third tier of Sheaffer's three lines from this era. There is work to be done. At least, if caps were stable throughout the run, we don't have to worry about import of finding suspected earlier caps with suspected later barrels, something that is a real issue with the other two tiers, and something still debated.

regards

david