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Blotto

Member Since 09 Jul 2010
Offline Last Active Apr 16 2017 12:15 AM
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Posts I've Made

In Topic: Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series

31 March 2012 - 11:41 PM

David:
Enjoyed the banter. We should pursue this over a glass on the patio of the Manhattan Beach Marriott next year.
Dan

In Topic: Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series

31 March 2012 - 11:30 PM


DI:
The language is rich in terms that have been gracefully ported forward. A sedan was carried by four men with two poles long before it had four doors and an internal combustion engine. To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.

I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens. Scroll down here: http://www.esterbrook.net/bah.shtml Its use long pre-dates this thread.


From DI: Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.




SNIP


Hi Dan,

Oy, we've waded into it this time.

For moment I'll put aside your discussion of whether Cracked Ice is a good term or not. I've already claimed there is fair reason to discuss that and I certainly recognize final individual opinions about the answer can vary, even if at the moment I lean to the idea that Crushed Ice might be a better term. But, whether Cracked or Crushed Ice is the better term was not the point of your prior post, which was to assert the puerile nature of the very discussion, with comments that seeking expertise in fountain pen collecting is foolishness, and that the whole subject is tiresome.




DI:
To pursue clarity when none is needed is a bad use of energy...foolish. Foolish pursuits are tiresome.




The bigger thing in your current post is that you seem to have already disproved the core thesis of your prior post, that the discussion of terms for this Estie plastic is puerile. You are interested enough in it to take a stand on which name you prefer, as per, "I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens."

You presumably don't consider your involvement or your sharing opinion to be puerile, thus the discussion could not be puerile earlier when others were venturing opinions Posted Image




Nice syllogism, except I didn't initiate the call for a campaign, and that is what is puerile.





I remain willing to concede that whether a subject is tiresome is wholly subjective, so there is not much to say on that secondary point.

Finally, I really do disagree with any claim that it is foolishness to-- per se-- seek expertise in a collectables field. Expertise is fun to seek and serves both the expert and (hopefully) the hobby well.

To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.


To be blunt... this is an assertion that others might not share, and it is one that tends, again, to squelch exploration. All exploration, study and invention risk ultimate lack of success. So... never try?




You're reaching for higher ground, but only moving onto thinner ice. The key is meaningful exploration, not the re-invention of the wheel.




Indeed, you've taken a stand on your belief that cracked is a good term. If there were no merit to the discussion, why bother?




Then why bother to change a term that thousands of EsteNuts use with complete understanding?

It becomes foolish when bona-fides are re-enforced with the intellectual equivalent of separating fly feces from ground pepper.





I'm not sure from where this comes. What did the thread have to do with re-enforcing any sort of bonafides? And, if the conversation was trivial and pointless, what's the worry if those who do care about the terms, play with 'em? ;)

regards

d


In Topic: Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series

31 March 2012 - 10:39 PM


I like crushed ice.

Disparate designs should not have the same names as David N. has pointed out, lessening potential confusion is good and hardly Talmudic pedantry.


You guys iz killin' me.

I suspect my biggest gripe (and it is in good cheer, no worries) in this thread is the linkage of "Talmudic" to "pedantry". One can be a pedant and one can be Talmudic, but the linkage would seem to mark an assertion that Talmudic processes exemplify the notion of pedantry, which just is not so.

... or is that getting too pedantic ;)

-d



DI:
Of course, Talmudic scholarship is not pedantic.
Only, when any scholarship starts to focus on minor details for the purpose of establishing academic acuity it devolves that way, and the bigger intent gets lost.
Dan

In Topic: Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series

31 March 2012 - 10:09 PM

In this particular case, "Cracked Ice" (similar perhaps to another used n' abused term, Demonstrator) long has had a fairly specific application, to a pattern mentioned by the other David, particularly found amongst Conway Stewart pens. It seems only verrrry recently the term started being used for Esties. Indeed, I'm not sure I've had conscious recognition of its application to Esties prior to this thread. As its use on Esties seems an attempt to map an old term to a relatively newly collected series, I see room to explore the jargon.


DI:
The language is rich in terms that have been gracefully ported forward. A sedan was carried by four men with two poles long before it had four doors and an internal combustion engine. To raise the issue of crushed versus cracked to the level of a campaign equates to the 5th century schism between the Greek and Roman churches as to whether the host should be levened or un-levened bread. Ultimately it was never resoled. Every one just shrugged, agreed to disagree and focused on more pressing issues.

I came to Estes five or six years ago. At that time Cracked Ice was, and remains a reasonable descriptor for the $1.50 pens. Scroll down here: http://www.esterbrook.net/bah.shtml Its use long pre-dates this thread.


Too, while I make no claim to expertise (indeed, I'm a committed Hack Amateur Newbie for life, a conversation for another day), I don't know why it is foolish to be an expert in fountain pen collecting. Seems like it would be a good thing.


It becomes foolish when bona-fides are re-enforced with the intellectual equivalent of separating fly feces from ground pepper.

What can I say... this stuff interests me Posted Image


Me too
Best,
Dan

In Topic: Esterbrook Dollar Pens: Why are they not as popular as the J-Series

31 March 2012 - 08:27 PM


David, will you join me in my campaign to rename the so-called "cracked ice" Esterbrooks, "crushed ice"?

The latter term is more descriptive of their actual appearance, while "cracked ice" already has a long-established meaning that is entirely different (i. e., black blocks separated by silver or gold lines, as used on Conway Stewarts).


Hi David,

Sure, I live for pen campaigns ;)

Whlle I'm not heavily emotionally invested in the jargon of Esterbrooks, I do tend to enjoy in general adding accuracy and specificity to the lexicon of pendom. Crushed ice for this sort would seem better than cracked ice, I agree, assuming all of us are referencing the same style, say the top couple pens in this spread.
Though, for now, probably best not to get into campaigsn for use of of candy-stripe Parkers (Televisor plastic, or Valentine plastic, as seen on some rare English Vacumatics) or of off-catalogue/fancy/special/jeweler's cap-band Balances :rolleyes:

regards

d


It is foolish enough to be an expert in, of all things, fountain pens, but to quibble about whether the term is cracked or crushed is puerile.

Some days all this Talmudic pedantry becomes tiresome. This is one of them.

Dan