I really can't tell FPB how much I truly apologize. My actions were very arrogant, and irresponsible. I would like to apologize to everyone I have hurt, as I wasn't trying to deceive anybody. Simply I was looking for another buyer, so that two people could afford one collection of pens. But what I failed to consider, is I can only sell pens after I've bought them.

I very much take full responsibility for my stupidity, and I sincerely apologize to the fullest degree for my actions.

I really can't tell FPB how much I truly apologize. My actions were very arrogant, and irresponsible. I would like to apologize to everyone I have hurt, as I wasn't trying to deceive anybody. Simply I was looking for another buyer, so that two people could afford one collection of pens. But what I failed to consider, is I can only sell pens after I've bought them.

I very much take full responsibility for my stupidity, and I sincerely apologize to the fullest degree for my actions.

Arrogance and irresponsibility really are not relevant. Sort of like an attempted murderer apologizing for being thoughtless. Perhaps you can find better words for what is wrong with you.

Also, you appear to be a liar or to have a mental defect. The issue of "selling" things you don't own had clearly been raised for you before. This is not new. Based (yet again, in this latest run) on your posts to George, we know you are a liar. Lying, by definition, indeed is deception, so clearly you *were* trying to deceive.

So, explain to us what sort of person fails to consider he cannot sell what he does not own?

Of note, you have "apologized" for this sort of thing before.

Who you thought might afford a collection matters not at all. It wasn't your collection.

Your posts on Gun, Precious Metal, Car, and Music Equipment sites are similarly interesting.

So, what then is your defect?

regards

david

I was being very inconsiderate, and yet again not knowing the pen community is as small as it is.

Also this is not apologizing, this is a huge apology, in which I will be sure to step back from the hobby and rethink my actions.

I understand how it would be fraud with me taking the money and running, but I wasn't going to do that. I was simply looking for someone to buy into the collection with me.

Not only is this the second and last time I will ever sell without buying, but its the last time I communicate with people who have manipulated in the past and continue to manipulate me. The people who managed to manipulate me into trying to sell them pens, were people which in fact knew prior to messaging me that there friend had pens which they photographed for me the day before. If that is deceptioin, I don't know what is.

I would like to say again, I really have overstepped the boundaries and apologize.

Your words are correct, and I appreciate hearing the truth. The one thing I understood about the pen was that the size waslearnmmon, and many haven't handled the Waterman 7 size pens before. If their is more that I don't know,I'm ears open and ready to learn.

Moving beyond some of the dysfunctional verbiage, I note that the pen in question is not a 7-size pen.

regards

david

Let me reread and get back to you.

The 472 1/2, please teach me what I don't know.

Also I do have the chance to purchase a 475, I take that it might be even harder to come by?

Oh Dr. Issacson, your words are quite contemptuous and cornering, but I'll try my best.

You are wrong. My words were specific and accurate. That you find specificity and accuracy threatening is... telling.

I await reconciliation of your two statements " I previously stated I've not handled any....A nice pen, but nothing too rare about the pen." regarding the Waterman 472 1/2 Pansy Panel Sterling overly

When I stated that it means exactly that. Common pattern, common nib, but yes uncommon size. IMO that's all it has going.

The size is not uncommon, as has already been pointed out to you.

So, you've never seen the pen. People who know a great deal about Waterman have opined regarding its uncommon status. You, apparently being a "little expert and "#1 'who sounds smart', rather than ask what intrigues those who know more than you, have commented that nothing about the pen is too rare. You don't apparently know enough to know what is uncommon about it, despite your never having seen one of these before, and you did not absorb what was handed to you in the comments about the pen itself, which describe what is uncommon about it. Go... figure.

Now IMO a rare Pansy overlay may be of which is a taper eyedropper with snake accommodation cap. Huh, now you can't tell me that would be a $1500-2k pen given the Swann auction results for my favorite pen their, a Waterman smooth silver taper own with a snake accommodation cap for $1150 I believe (I have to double check).

We return to babble.

Those who assert, "You can't tell me..." often are in great need of being told.

regards

david

Your words are correct, and I appreciate hearing the truth. The one thing I understood about the pen was that the size waslearnmmon, and many haven't handled the Waterman 7 size pens before. If their is more that I don't know,I'm ears open and ready to learn.

I previously stated I've not handled any.

Your comment is about the Waterman 472 1/2 Pansy Panel Sterling overlay pen.

Yet earlier you wrote,

A nice pen, but nothing too rare about the pen.

I await your basis for your assertion there is nothing too rare about this pen. You are in your view a "little expert". You are in your view a "#1 who sounds smart"

Do share...

regards

david

Oh Dr. Issacson, your words are quite contemptuous and cornering, but I'll try my best.

When I stated that it means exactly that. Common pattern, common nib, but yes uncommon size. IMO that's all it has going. Now IMO a rare Pansy overlay may be of which is a taper eyedropper with snake accommodation cap. Huh, now you can't tell me that would be a $1500-2k pen given the Swann auction results for my favorite pen their, a Waterman smooth silver taper own with a snake accommodation cap for $1150 I believe (I have to double check).

The 472 1/2, please teach me what I don't know.

Also I do have the chance to purchase a 475, I take that it might be even harder to come by?

To start then, do you know what a Waterman 475 is, what features make it "475"?

regards

david

I do appreciate the willingness to help me, I really so appreciate it.

And from what ive read the 47x series is a screw cap eyedropper which is the 7,the 4 means silver, and 2 means nib size and the 1/2 is the slender model. To kill two bids with one stone, the 475 would have a Watermans #5 nib, is this correct?

Your stating that me saying that statement, is not the same as when some 'experts' are telling new members to look on eBay for pricing... I have resource books, and what I thought were some guidefull friends in the hobby (cough, cough) which could also help me while giving me a bit of an education.

Though when I feel being educated is good, I also feel some get frustrated that their time is being wasted and want me to make it quick or buy something. I suppose that is a sign of being a father or not.

"me saying"? "Me Bam Bam?"

The rest of your quote/ccomments are a bit hopeless.

Having opinions is fine.. to a point. Equating that with being "expert" is less fine. As was pointed out to you months ago, asking questions, rather than making wide ranging claims, might serve you better.

Too, we remain interested (as Jerry Adair pointed out) to hear about your position in a multi-billion dollar company. Peeking at your Linked-in profile, I note that it takes just $300k or so to start a McDonald's franchise.

regards

david

Not McD's and its about $50k cheaper to start.

The phrase is 'kill two BIRDS with one stone'.

Autocorrect doesn't always word, buy yes that is what I meant. Anything else about this pen that I don't know?

Wow. I just found this thread, and I am amazed at how much misunderstanding my pen find has caused. So that we don’t keep dragging this conversation out and further confuse Brandon, allow me to summarize what has been said in a concise manner.


Brandon,

The pen I found is a 472 ½. The 4 stands for Sterling overlay, the 7 stands for screw-cap eyedropper, the 2 stands for a “2” size nib, and the ½ stands for a slender pen.

The pansy panel pattern is a fairly common pattern. The 72 ½ is a not-uncommon pen. However, a pansy panel 72 ½ is a very uncommon (maybe even rare) pen according to David Isaacson. I know that David has handled thousands and thousands more pens than I have in his years of collecting, and says he does not believe that he has ever seen one.

Rarity does not always coincide with value. Some pens are very rare, but undesirable. A pen could potentially be one of only a hundred known and still only be worth 10 dollars. However, there were millions of black Aerometric Parker 51s made, and it’s getting hard to find those for less than 50 dollars from a retail seller.



Let me help you out a little bit here, Brandon. I am going to ask some serious questions below because I honestly don’t know the answers, and there are people here with good experience who I trust and consider friends. I would like to understand better what makes this particular pen uncommon. Here is one good example o how to learn from the knowledgeable people on this board:

What is it about the 472 ½ I found that makes it so uncommon? Are sterling overlays in general (any pattern) very uncommon on the 7x series pens, or is it the pansy panel pattern that sets this pen apart?

Brian,

I really can't tell you how much I appreciate this post. You summarized all the facts up, and showed me how to type a very clear, precise question. I'll be sure to follow your format, you have my word on that. Nice pen none the less.

The phrase is 'kill two BIRDS with one stone'.

Autocorrect doesn't always word, buy yes that is what I meant. Anything else about this pen that I don't know?

No "pen" has been discussed, rather a model number. We'd have to see an actual pen and find out what you know in order to figure out what you don't know.

regards

david

Can't we just speak in theory, and give me a little fountain pen quiz on Watermans which will find my IQ on what I know and don't know...

[quote name='JonSzanto' date='14 April 2013 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1365916216' post='23586']
David nailed it with one word. Holy fuck, this is painful.

.

Please Hugh forgive me. I was going to let this dog stay on the porch but I can't . In a word...... WHAT!
Bran that last statement fo yours makes no sense whatsoever.
Please reconstruct it so I may understand what you are saying.
Jerry

David asked me what made the 475 a 475. I came in with both the characteristics of the 472 and 475. From what ive read the 47x series is a screw cap eyedropper which is the number 7,the number 4 means silver, and the number 2 means nib size and the 1/2 is the slender model. To kill two bids with one stone, the 475 would have a Watermans #5 nib, is this correct?

Thanks for showing me the thread. A nice pen, but nothing too rare about the pen.

The word, "clueless", comes to mind...

-d

I may be, but this pen still doesn't change. The pattern is not special, there is no insignia given someone of interest, the only thing going for it is an uncommon size. I'm not an expert, but maybe a $5-800 pen?... Retail.

How many overlay pens of this size have you seen? Several of the participants here have been collecting pens longer than you have existed. Most have considerably more resources than an 18/hr supervisor and several have indicated they have not owned such a pen.

Reread the thread. Knowing the details of who has seen what gives you an advantage over other less knowledgable buyers. There have been several good lessons on the board in the last week. Knowledge is power and right now the lessons are free-should you choose to buy and sell with the more seasoned players dealing in exquisite pens, the lessons could get expensive.

0. And yes, knowledge is power. That is why I'm a #1.

You do understand though for me, size doesn't matter. I'm after much harder to come by Watermans. We all have a different motive for our collections, so let's not argue over why size may or may not matter.

Any unusual or interesting 51s in your trading stock? If there is something I'm interested in, I'll go look through a few boxes for something you seek.

As much as I love P51s, I only have 1, and have only bought and sold 5. I do have early Parker pens, but they are being collected for a big upcoming trade ( which I'm looking forward to, big time ). I hope you can feel my ambitious, driven, and determination for it.

Brandon,

You are a still a minor I gather, under the legal age of consent? Last I recall you were performing dubious transactions (which can be seen if people want to search for it, right now I do not have the time to offer the links, but the evidence is there) on this board at age 16 which was last fall. You were performing behind the scenes transactions trying to sell pens that did not belong to you. You were also trying to broker behind the scenes chats with me and Rick Krantz and with you being a minor I politely declined. I will not get into private email discussion with a minor concerning differing issues especially a minor who has been known to alter factual information like going on gun boards claiming to be 21 years and is actually a teenager.

I think it is terrific you want to be a part of this hobby. Wonderful. There are pen shows which you can visit. There are conversations you can have with people where you can learn oh so much. Going on line especially a board like this, and do remember as I recall this is one board where you are not locked out of, can offer nuancess in learning that so many other places do not offer. You have so many years of knowledge amongst collectors here that it is amazing. I find it amazing that a collector can look into case of pens and see that little bit of difference that makes one pen more collectable then another. I have stood next to people at pen shows who told me look down and I personally cannot see what they are trying to say and I am show how a cap band is just a fraction of an inch different and that makes the difference. Being shown this amazes me how some people can see this detail. It is so wonderful to experience this.

You are a minor because as I recall you were 16 years old last fall. You want back channel communications with adults about making transactions. That is dangerous for adults and for you. You are basically asking for an adult to put themselves into a situation which may or may not be legal in some states (and I will leave that up to experts) and in addition, knowing your history, every person should take into getting any transaction online with you which is also federal if I recall correctly.

People do grow up. Minors do grow up. They can mature very nicely during a few month period. They can learn so much and improve their skills that they mature rather than just age. I hope this is the case for you and you will continue to mature growing up to be a role model for what is good and is honest and loyal and true, a person whose integrity is beyond reproach in this hobby. Reputation in this hobby is everything and there are people in this hobby whose reputation is such that many do not worry when they hand over their prized pens or their credit cards to them.

When I first started in this hobby around 1998 or so, I was paying off some heavy duty bills and a pen I wanted could not be paid for all at once. I worked out a deal with the seller that he would hold the pen for me until I paid it off in installments over the course of a few months. When he saw that I kept my part of the deal and paid him the what, 10 or 15 bucks every 2 weeks, he sent me the pen before it was paid off. He trusted me as I, a new comer trusted him buying my first pen. When I purchased other pens from other people, I used him as a reference. It helped me a great deal and helped me build my collection from online transactions in those early days. I did not know the people I was buying from offering them my credit card number for their businesses but I learned through others and references that the people I had those early transactions with were people of integrity.

Based on what was seen last year in the summer and the fall, information on other boards which have traveled quickly throughout the community and with you being a minor who violated the terms of service on Ebay by buying and selling as a minor which is illegal according to their terms of service, it is best to let others know if they do choose to get into a transaction with you, your reputation needs a great deal of work.

You are a minor and I as an adult have to take care with you as a minor. It is my responsibility not to bully you, but it is also my responsibility to make sure others in this community who are new to this board know through private transactions they are entering into agreements with a minor.

I hope through time you show each of us how you have matured. How trustworthy you have become and how we look at the past saying, wow, that was a long time ago and look at things today, Brandon is someone who has matured and has a reputation that is stellar. That is going to take time to build and you are young and have that time to build it. That is the hope that the future brings. People can grow, they can mature, they make amends for their past actions and from there perform acts showing they are truly sorry for what has happened in the past and will not do the things that caused their reputation to sully but will do things to rebuild it. Every person has the opportunity for redemption. For some it can be immediate, for others it can take a lifetime, but the opportunity is there. Every person has the chance to redeem their reputation, but they must accept it takes time to rebuild it. And if they are minors, it may take longer because adults want to make sure the person they are dealing with are of legal age of consent before entering into transactions with them.

So to everyone reading this, it is something to think about. For you Brandon, it is the chance through your actions, through your messages and the promises you have made in the past concerning Ebay and selling and buying on there as a minor when it is illegal, on going on different boards and being removed from them for your youthful indiscretions, for your lying about your age stating you were older and were not on the gun boards, for your back channel wheeling and dealing here with pens you did not own, that we have to see through time and it will take time, have you improved your reputation. I certainly hope so Brandon, I certainly do hope so. There is so much to look forward in the future for you as you become of legal age of consent and from there, the vistas appear before you.

For me, if you want back channel as I have told you previously, I will not do back channel communications. You are a minor.

I will communicate on this board and any other board publicly and look forward to watching you mature, earn a reputation that is stellar, improve in integrity, and become someone in this hobby who we can look back upon and say, wow, I am so glad to know him.

It is up to you what kind of future you want to build for yourself. Remember everyone ages, not all of us mature.

Pat

Pat, I appreciate the time you took to write this post;

I would first like to say that I've vastly matured over the last 7-8 months, and am continuing to mature given some very unfortunate preventative actions I chose. I understand some of you may be thinking teenager things... but its not even that,it was just the mistake of the click as you could say.

I despise when my history is brought up regarding other boards since there were reasons why things were handled the way they were. Regarding guns, I was interested in pre 1898 guns and I was eager to learn more about them, and whatever else I was interested in at the time. Regarding a private transaction that went wrong was when I had interest in a demonstrator Parker which the seller did not tell me was already sold, and I continued to waste my time showing potential tradable pens with cash,etc. And since i did not know value, i contacted someone who i thought i could trust, but it turns out that was the guy who the pen was sold to. What a coincident, huh. All this IMO doesn't matter, but I understand it may for people who deal on these boards.

Ever since I was 13/14 I was eager to work. Always wanted money, keep me occupied,etc. I finally turned 16 and was offered a job at $18 an hour and I'm being promoted manager in the upcoming months. Just took my ACTs and scored very well in the science and writing portions, showing I do very well in the management sector of careers (financial,real estate,etc). I do apologize to anyone who doesn't appreciate my hard work ethic which has been and will always be driven, motivated, and ambitious. I strive for the top of the mountain, and I keep looking up until I can't look up no more.

I understand I have a lot to learn, and my last hobby which Im still with, high end audio, it came easier given its more common sense and numbers. Fountain pens on the other hand are not as clear cut, and require a more definite answer which can't always be answered. I look forward to meeting some heavy hitter collectors in a public place (given some may not want to personally invite me over to show me their collection(I'm putting that out their as some will think that(I'm also mature enough to understand any repercussions, and I think pen guys in general aren't murderers))).

I hate that some of you guys don't trust me, i m not sure if that's the right word, but time will tell I suppose.

After my last foray on 'Pens for Sale' when I ended up $125 poorer and no pen to show for it I will be very careful about buying/trading on anything. I have bought pens and other items totalling thousands of $'s from the US with no problems but after the last debarcle, when the seller didn't even respond to e mails, I will not be buying/trading again.

I find it sad when 1 unfortunate incident can sour the thought of any subsequent purchases.

I'm sad that you have had this experience, but you do have to remember, if thou have 1000 pen transactions, the potentially for something to go wrong is there.

The great thing about dealing with people who aren't of eBay or are "dealers" is that you have a better chance of negotiating, finding something thou like, and ultimately having them as a close pen friend that can look for pens in the wild.

And what are you trading Brandon?

Anything and everything, Im sure I could find something to fill someones desire list if they have something I have to have.

Bump, need more.

The reality is that we don't trust you. If I were to make a deal with say, John Danza I would send him the pen in a hearbeat with no money changng hands. And, I expect he would do the same for me. He is not the only one on the list that I would trust implicitly. Heck one of these guys actually wrote me a check for more than a $1500 and didn't sign it. Did I worry? Not in the least. I knew him, had dealt with him many times and knew him to be 100% trustworthy. That is where you need to get too in your dealings with this community.
I guess though I am glad you are back, you do keep the level of long and poignant letters coming in.
Best
Jerry

I don't know if this qualifies for good or bad, but I take it as good in that its a teachable moment and it keeps us all busy on the forum

Also $18 get you a lot from a hard working, motivated employee. I'm not only in charge of about 14 other employees, but I make sure everyone is on task and not standing around. As they say, if your leaning, your cleaning.

I don't know if this qualifies for good or bad, but I take it as good in that its a teachable moment and it keeps us all busy on the forum

Also $18 get you a lot from a hard working, motivated employee. I'm not only in charge of about 14 other employees, but I make sure everyone is on task and not standing around. As they say, if your leaning, your cleaning.

Are you sure it's your leaning, not my leaning?

-d

Did you not score very well on the English portion of the ACT exam?

I apologize for any grammatical errors, I'm on a different system that I'm not accustomed to.

I'm not expert...

Well, there you go.

I'll trust the experts.

OK.

We all have access to public information that gives us the intellect to be our own little expert.

Thanks for showing me the thread. A nice pen, but nothing too rare about the pen.

The word, "clueless", comes to mind...

-d

I may be, but this pen still doesn't change. The pattern is not special, there is no insignia given someone of interest, the only thing going for it is an uncommon size. I'm not an expert, but maybe a $5-800 pen?... Retail.

If you have not seen it, a very interesting Waterman silver overlay pen was just found lurking in an antique mall. The thread is here

I do have some interest in the pen, please PM me.

I'm not the owner, but I would have enjoyed finding it!

Thanks for showing me the thread. A nice pen, but nothing too rare about the pen. I just caught wind of an Italian collector selling some very rare Italian, and Canadian silver Watermans. Currently trying to hold onto some cash to purchase them. It will be the most expensive pen I've bought gfo date so far.

At age 72 I am unsure if I have ever heard that bit of wisdom "if you're leaning your cleaning" Must have escaped me during my Philosophy class in 1959, I guess the authoratative bearing of a 16 year old must get everyones attention. And 14 people WOW I was the VP of Sales of a $44MM company and didn't have 14 people and the Director of Sales of a unit of Fasco Motors with sales of over $100MM and didn't have 14 people as direct reports. I am envious!
Doth thou exaggerate to much?
Jerry

Jerry,

I understand what this must mean for you, and not underestimating you, but the employees I'm in charge of, are part of a $2.4 billion dollar a year company. And yes, its billions with a b.

Please email me if you have silver pens pre 1940 which you would be up to trading or selling. I have plenty to trade, and I'm up to it when you are