Sheaffer 1920's Flat-tops - different sizes names

Hello,

Being fully aware of the (most probable?) lack of a definite answer, I decided to pick your brains anyway. I did some digging looking for the answer and I have found myself in the starting point ... But maybe I just wasn't looking carefully enough ... Ad rem:

As the topic and its description state: Is there any P R O P E R way of naming different sizes of Flat-tops? I mean I couldn't find any Sheaffer's printed indication but I can look up only one catalogue from the roaring 20's ... No info of this type in the adverts I saw.
From what I can see the names in circulation are as follows:

The biggest in size pens are called: OS/Oversize, Large, Standard size (in regular and slender variety), Senior (sic!), Full Length
The other ones: Junior, Short Length, Long-Slender ...

Obviously there are nib-imprinted models like 5-30, 3-25, 46 special, 22 student and the like - here naming is easier, although sometimes tricky (vide different sizes of pens with 8 nib, etc.).

The question is simple and precise: Is there any, for some reason better, way of naming the biggest model - when refering to their size (that is: length and girths). Or should I just accept all the names I mentioned above to be ... natural attempts to describe the realm somehow for the sake of communication?

I have a 1923 catalogue in front of me. Pens are marked with codes: digits and letters. Digits for the nib type. Letters for ... different things, I guess
In Sheaffer Regular Line, compering size, there are 3 types of pen:
A. The biggest, with a letter code referring to a presence of a clip (?) - letter C
B. Smaller ones, marked SC (Short or Student (?), with a clip or SR (Short or Student (?), Ring-top)
C. Finally the smallest one: marked M (I guess, we would call it Midi today? Or it should be Mini/SeMi/Medium?)

In LifeTime line the clip/no-clip labels seem to be the same. Out of three of the ones in Regular Line there are two sizes depicted: A and B. Smaller one has "S" in the code. New letter is used (T - ... for having LifeTime warranty?) but doesn't look like it has anything to do with the size ...

All help and hints welcome. If I missed some self-evident info please direct me to it. Also - I maybe mistaken with my "deciphering" pen codes. Please correct me if it's needed.
TIA for all the answers,
Regards,
Mac

EDIT: In the document with Sheaffer's Giftie sets from circa 1922 - Regular Length pen - 5 inches, Midget pen - 3,75 inches. Midget size - nice , not entirely PC though

Edited by MacKozinsky, 01 July 2012 - 03:46 PM.

Hello,

Being fully aware of the (most probable?) lack of a definite answer, I decided to pick your brains anyway. I did some digging looking for the answer and I have found myself in the starting point ... But maybe I just wasn't looking carefully enough ... Ad rem:

As the topic and its description state: Is there any P R O P E R way of naming different sizes of Flat-tops? I mean I couldn't find any Sheaffer's printed indication but I can look up only one catalogue from the roaring 20's ... No info of this type in the adverts I saw.
From what I can see the names in circulation are as follows:

The biggest in size pens are called: OS/Oversize, Large, Standard size (in regular and slender variety), Senior (sic!), Full Length
The other ones: Junior, Short Length, Long-Slender ...

Obviously there are nib-imprinted models like 5-30, 3-25, 46 special, 22 student and the like - here naming is easier, although sometimes tricky (vide different sizes of pens with 8 nib, etc.).

The question is simple and precise: Is there any, for some reason better, way of naming the biggest model - when refering to their size (that is: length and girths). Or should I just accept all the names I mentioned above to be ... natural attempts to describe the realm somehow for the sake of communication?

I have a 1923 catalogue in front of me. Pens are marked with codes: digits and letters. Digits for the nib type. Letters for ... different things, I guess
In Sheaffer Regular Line, compering size, there are 3 types of pen:
A. The biggest, with a letter code referring to a presence of a clip (?) - letter C
B. Smaller ones, marked SC (Short or Student (?), with a clip or SR (Short or Student (?), Ring-top)
C. Finally the smallest one: marked M (I guess, we would call it Midi today? Or it should be Mini/SeMi/Medium?)

In LifeTime line the clip/no-clip labels seem to be the same. Out of three of the ones in Regular Line there are two sizes depicted: A and B. Smaller one has "S" in the code. New letter is used (T - ... for having LifeTime warranty?) but doesn't look like it has anything to do with the size ...

All help and hints welcome. If I missed some self-evident info please direct me to it. Also - I maybe mistaken with my "deciphering" pen codes. Please correct me if it's needed.
TIA for all the answers,
Regards,
Mac

EDIT: In the document with Sheaffer's Giftie sets from circa 1922 - Regular Length pen - 5 inches, Midget pen - 3,75 inches. Midget size - nice , not entirely PC though

Let's start out with that most of them didn't have a name just a code. I put up with people calling 8C's "oversize" they are 8C's - what is so infernally hard with that! As to the codes they rarely changed.

C equals clip after 1921 as the clip was no longer optional. Prior to this the largest pen initially offered was a 6 (not an 8 an not an 8C). By the time the initial catalogue was reprinted there was an 8.

S equals short. Then in later combination always with C or R. So S we know it is short and then we need to know if it had a clip or a ringtop. Prior to this it would just be short.

R equals ring and is generally always short

Most classes of pens fell into a full length clip, short clip and short ringtop. Now if you only knew the above you'd be most the way there. What follows are modifiers most of which you don't see to often.

Two digit pens indicate the nib size first and the band 1 or 9 (1 gold filled and 9 solid 14K) A 1/2 would be a half band.

Prior to 1921 C equaled Crown what might be called a derby.


M equaled Midget and P presumably equaled pigmy. While the pigmy is in the 1925 catalog it is never shown but there are metal pigmys. In the '28 catalog there are the cherry and royal blue pigmys R1P and B1P (red and blue, 1 sized nib, pigmy).

The overlays have all kinds of numbers and letters best explained on page 17 of the 1925 catalog but, not fully.

Lifetime pens have several modifiers. COLOR Black has no indicator and there is J, R, K, B for Jade, Red (both coral and cherry are R), Pearl and Black and Blue or Black hard rubber (there was only the pigmy blue otherwise B was black hard rubber after the introduction of radite in 1924).
DIAMETER 8, 84, T, 74 for .58" (cap diameter on average) .52", .55" and .52" OK, two are the same diameter 84's are full length and 74's are short length but, they always have the SC or SR anyway.
BAND No code standard band and then 5, 8, 9 for 14K 1/2 band, 14K thin band (standard band just in 14K) and wide 14K band.

So you have to know where the modifier goes let's walk through two of them - BT85SC - Black hard rubber, 8 pen, 1/2 14K band, Short Clip or J74TR - Jade, thin, taper, ringtop.

Things migrate over time on the popular smaller items. The 34 was a popular biggish pen that became the 46 which gave way to the 5-30. There are differences - I'll do a pic on this later.

What was the question? Oh, yeah, no names generally just a bunch of numbers and letters that generally do make sense if you are very familiar with the codes.

Roger W.

Here is a couple pics of the 34 progression I mentioned above. Virtually the same size pen throughout with the caps being almost interchangeable in all cases



From bottom circa 1913-1915 Model 34, 1917 Model 34, 1923 Model 46, 1930 Late Model 5-30 (single band)



In reverse order to above dates, 5-30, 46 Special, 3 Self-Filling, 3 Self-Filling early teardrop breather hole.
The early nib is likely a posting nib and short thereby or it likely would have been a similar size.

Hi Mac and Roger,

While Roger's knowledge of flat-top Sheaffer' indeed is spooky, I see a couple issues in play with this thread, with Roger addressing one aspect well (namely, what do the model codes indicate for flat-tops), it is possible that the more general question I see in Mac's note (what sizes of flat top are there, and what do people commonly call them) is swallowed up in the torrent of model data

Or, I could be wrong.

Mac, I do note that you really should be a PCA member. Last Issue had key Balance material (by me) and key Flat-Top material by Roger, stuff never shown elsewhere in this depth.

So, given that I-- and Roger still chews me out for this-- have not gotten around to learning Sheaffer codes (hey, I'm just a Sheaffer dabbler. I'm really a Parker guy), I'll touch base on what you said in your first note

As the topic and its description state: Is there any P R O P E R way of naming different sizes of Flat-tops? I mean I couldn't find any Sheaffer's printed indication but I can look up only one catalogue from the roaring 20's ... No info of this type in the adverts I saw.From what I can see the names in circulation are as follows:

The biggest in size pens are called: OS/Oversize, Large, Standard size (in regular and slender variety), Senior (sic!), Full Length

The other ones: Junior, Short Length, Long-Slender ...

This is a real issue.


Different companies use different words for different size pens. The same company can use different words at different times for similar size pens or can use the same word at different times for different pens. And, when companies DIDN'T use clear size names for pens (as with Sheaffer, which tended to use codes, not model names or formal sizes), collectors have habit of mapping various general terms to such pens, but don't always do so the same way!

An example, Parker used "Junior" and "Senior" to reference sizes of Duofold, but they were similar tier pens with similar warranty. But Parker used Junior in the Vacumatic series to reference a price point and warranty level for a lower priced pen, which sometimes was bigger pen than more expensive high-line pens, making a Junior bigger than some non-Juniors.

Collectors, back when I started in 1998, seems to call large white dot flat top Sheaffer "Senior", and smaller standard girth pens "Junior" in parallel to Parker Duofold jargon, which had a bigger following and about which more had been written at the time. But Sheaffer appears not to have used those names as size descriptors for flat-top

So, let's play with descriptive sizing, noting that in a given size, different levels (price point, trim, cachet) of pens could be found in some of the sizes. I'll focus now on plastic, noting that things to me are a bit fuzzier the further back we go. Core names are based on girth of pen, some diameters found both long and short. Pretty much we have three diameters in play, with one exotic (to me) exception

So at the very least we have:

• Oversized (implicitly long pen)
• "Chubby" ( a long pen fatter than standard but not quite oversized. So far I've seen one in black)
• Long Standard
• Short Standard
• Long Slender
• Short Slender

So...

Standard and Slender are found both Long and Short.

OS implicitly is long (i believe all fat pens in catalogues are long), though I have seen some shortened OS pens serving as Service Pens, but those are anomalies.

In many cases, both high line and lower line pens can be found in any given size, so nib and markings don't prove a size, though there are associations. Indeed, in some cases, color affects size as much as markings. A "3-25" Orange pen can be Standard girth or (off catalogue) Slender Girth, but usually Standard. A black 3-25 tends to be Slender as the Standard black non white dot is a 5-30 more expensive pen.

A nice breakdown to do would be to make list by size, then make sub-list of tiers (price point, markings, etc) found in each size.

For plastic, for example.

OS is found as Lifetime/White Dot and as 7-30 non-White Dot.

Standard Long is found WHite Dot, 5-30 and 3-25 depending on color.

Slender Long has.. idunno, White Dot, 3-25 and lower tier (some are rubber even after plastic starts), such as student 22, that weird "lane change" pen and so forth.

There would be merit in doing these lists on par with that time line for Balance in another thread.

regards

david

Roger W. and David: thanks so much for detailed answers and pictures of 34 progression. A lot to digest ...
Roger - if you don't mind I may have some clarifying questions about the codes, to make sure I understand your info correctly - I need to slowly read some of the lines of digits, codes and diameters to wrap my head properly around the intended info in them After the third reading I think I get the picture. I've learned that there were actually 3 sizes of LifeTime pen in 1923 - two of them of the same length but different diameter. Thanks :-) I have one doubt at this point: The only one I have, 1923 catalogue shows, on p. 8, a pen coded with 85C but having a wide 14kt band ...
While

BAND No code standard band and then 5, 8, 9 for 14K 1/2 band, 14K thin band (standard band just in 14K) and wide 14K band.

- I got something wrong here probably ...

Also - this Christmas info I quoted with Regular Length and Midget - do I find any other Sheaffer's info like that later in the 1920s? Like between 1925-29? Or just codes?

Basically, what you are both saying is - (in a nutshell): the size names (like Oversize or Senior) for the Sheaffer pens are not really substantiated by printed material of the producer. It's most probably a later idea, especially useful among pen collectors and aficionados, right? But there is plenty of very precise info in codes, which are meaningful for they were used to express all the useful details of the pen ...

OK. Let's use the knowledge. Suppose I have a flat-top, 1925 or later celluloid (DuPont radite) pen with white dot pictured below. The pen measures 13,5 cm. How do I call it given the fact, the producer uses no name or even code for the biggest size on offer - I understand, if I follow the producers official codes it may be just, say, a K8C,
K for being Pearl and Black
8 for being .58" in Diameter - the diameter here is the inner one, right? and/or having an 8 size nib (which technically must be in line, I guess: bigger nib=bigger cap)
No BAND info as it only refers to 14K bands? They were really marked 14K as the catalogue shows them, right?
C for having a clip
And that's it? Any additional nib reference?
:





As for the not used at the time and probably non-producer but referring to the size nomenclature: My problem with using Oversize for Flat-tops (another non-Sheaffer descriptive expression?) is that to my mind (and I don't come from an English speaking country - which may be part of the reason I see things this way) there must be a Standard/Regular size pen so that an Oversize can exist. The same applies to shorter sizes. I mean looking at the catalogue there were short and midget pens - shorter/smaller then the ... Standard/Regular size pen, which were of course the biggest. I mean in Balance line there were full-length pens and "chubby" Oversizes ... And I would leave Senior for Parker (although if the is 75, I guess I can call it a Senior )

So - suppose I still want more than 8C - Roger W.: I beg for understanding - if I were to choose a name for the big ones, excluding Senior and Oversize for the reasons stated above, I guess I should look at Full-leght or Regular/Standard size?

Thanks a lot again gentleman As for the PCA - working on it :-)
Pozdrawiam,
Mac

Edited by MacKozinsky, 02 July 2012 - 12:59 PM.

Hi Mac,

Nice images. Or you scanning or photographing?

To address a bit of this, before I take nap after night shift before flying back to NYC...

It is reasonable to call the chunkiest of the flat-tops by the term "oversize" as that term is common parlance for the fattest of three diameters offered by companies. Parker and Sheaffer and Wahl had three diameters for some series during this era.

Sheaffer made pens as long as that black/pearl in fat, standard, and thin diameter (ignoring the weird exception between fat and standard, not done in many variants).

When home will try to shoot long flat-tops in three diameters side by side.

regards

david

Nice images. Or you scanning or photographing?

Photos. These ones are my friend's.

Sheaffer made pens as long as that black/pearl in fat, standard, and thin diameter (ignoring the weird exception between fat and standard, not done in many variants).

If that's the case: OK. But can you refer to any catalogue model codes once you have the time and are a bit nearer them? Pretty please ...
As I meantioned the 1923 catalogue depicts the longest LifeTime pens in only two girths and in 1928 I can see only 3 Pearl and Black flat-top, WD pens. Big one clip model, smaller one (=shorter) clip model and equally small ring-top. No girth variation with long model. It's more interesting with Black and Jade -mostly it's about the pens having different bands but as for the sizes (plastic pens not HR) I can still see only three of them: Standard (the longest), Short (slightly shorter and I guess thinner) and Midget (the smallest).

Best Regards,
Mac

Nice images. Or you scanning or photographing?

Photos. These ones are my friend's.

Sheaffer made pens as long as that black/pearl in fat, standard, and thin diameter (ignoring the weird exception between fat and standard, not done in many variants).

If that's the case: OK. But can you refer to any catalogue model codes once you have the time and are a bit nearer them? Pretty please ...
As I meantioned the 1923 catalogue depicts the longest LifeTime pens in only two girths and in 1928 I can see only 3 Pearl and Black flat-top, WD pens. Big one clip model, smaller one (=shorter) clip model and equally small ring-top. No girth variation with long model. It's more interesting with Black and Jade -mostly it's about the pens having different bands but as for the sizes (plastic pens not HR) I can still see only three of them: Standard (the longest), Short (slightly shorter and I guess thinner) and Midget (the smallest).

Best Regards,
Mac

K8C - I understand you perfectly. OK, most people would call it a black and pearl oversized - fine. The only ones of these cataloged fall into what I told you are the primary sets for Sheaffer in later flat tops - long clip, short clip and ringtop. Black and pearl were a late addition to the '28 catalog which is a folio catalog - pages being sent to ad to the catalog as changes were made. K8C - .58" full length clip, K74SC - .52" short length clip, and K74SR - .52" short length ringtop. There are 5-30 and 3-25 K's but, they are non catalog (though they might be in repair manuals - I don't remember) but, K5-30C would be an appropriate reference.

Radite stuff is fairly standardized as there are some 87ish models in four major width classes (pigmys being an exception) in two major lengths of roughly 4 1/2" and 5 1/4" (pigmys and the short quill dialer being exceptions). 22's, 46's, 3-25's and 5-30's are .47" or .52" diameter. Secretarys and 7-30's are .55" and .58" with lifetimes having three diameters of .52", .55" and .58". The girth is essential in putting the pen together as the parts have to fit, length can vary a bit more than girth (though girth varies a bit). This is all for pens made primarily between 1924 and 1930 though flat tops do extend up into the 1940's. The flattops made in the 1930's represent less than 30% of Sheaffer's pen production at the start of the decade and certainly dwindle as the decade went on.

Roger W.

Hi,

 

Looking for some other kind of info I noticed that Sheaffer printed material actually includes the "O" word For example:

 

- in 1928 catalogue we will find model 8C (the long and chubby one) to be described as having "Oversize long holder"

- later, but before the introduction of the name Premier, model 8 (85 at that time) was described as being  The largest size is what is customarily known as "oversize". 1935 catalogue.

 

Regards,

Maciek

 

PS.: Any chance Roger's sheafferflatop.com website will be put back online?

There is a strong chance I will get my site up and running again along the lines of a blog.  I've spent a little time on it but, not enough.

 

Roger W.

Good news :-)

Found some nice flat-tops in the Sheaffer Vice President (1950s) collection I recently bought

You are welcome to share (a) picture(s) and/or comment(s). I bet there is something not exactly kosher catalogue-wise :-)