Conklin Endura Symetrik- Oversize

Hi Gang,

I recently bought a Conklin Endura Symetrik. However, this pen is seemingly unusual (at least to my inexperienced eyes).

1. The cap is not the usual Symetrik shape. It would seem to be an Endura flat top cap which has a rounded top. It also has a single cap band rather than the double cap bands which I have seen on Symetriks.

2. The feed is different from what is in my flat top Endura and also different from what is in the Symetrik. Almost seems to be a blend between the two.

What do you guys think about this pen??

Thank You,

Preston







.

Very early Symetrik Preston, also a very uncommon one !! You've summed it up pretty well...a bit of old, a bit of new. I've yet to have the pleasure of one of those in hand.

Regards
Hugh

Very early Symetrik Preston, also a very uncommon one !! You've summed it up pretty well...a bit of old, a bit of new. I've yet to have the pleasure of one of those in hand.

Regards
Hugh

Thank you Hugh! Have you seen others similar to this one?

-Preston

Very early Symetrik Preston, also a very uncommon one !! You've summed it up pretty well...a bit of old, a bit of new. I've yet to have the pleasure of one of those in hand.

Regards
Hugh

Thank you Hugh! Have you seen others similar to this one?

-Preston

Hi Preston,

I've seen similiar ( how similiar is testing my memory!! but I say the same) , there's a slightly later one here . The "story" is that once the Sheaffer Balance appeared there was a mad rush by Conklin to make streamline pens hence a number of very short lived " evolution" pens seem to appear. So dating is difficult but the catalogue tells us by 1930 the streamline process was complete ( you leaf green E/Symetrik dates from that time frame and it's there, only colour streamline shown and with the inlaid crescent) and shows flattop Enduras and combos. Yours would seem to be one of , if not, the earliest of the "streamlines", the one linked to is later noting it has the inlaid crescent. The crescent seems a later feature but my OS leaf green doesn't have one, how that all fits in I don't know !! Maybe the one linked to is later than it appears. Time wise yours is probably '27/'28 , I suspect by '29 the transformation was fairly advanced ( with a few ???).

Regards
Hugh

Edited by Hugh, 12 February 2013 - 11:07 PM.

Very early Symetrik Preston, also a very uncommon one !! You've summed it up pretty well...a bit of old, a bit of new. I've yet to have the pleasure of one of those in hand.

Regards
Hugh

Thank you Hugh! Have you seen others similar to this one?

-Preston

Hi Preston,

I've seen similiar ( how similiar is testing my memory!! but I say the same) , there's a slightly later one here . The "story" is that once the Sheaffer Balance appeared there was a mad rush by Conklin to make streamline pens hence a number of very short lived " evolution" pens seem to appear. So dating is difficult but the catalogue tells us by 1930 the streamline process was complete ( you leaf green E/Symetrik dates from that time frame and it's there, only colour streamline shown and with the inlaid crescent) and shows flattop Enduras and combos. Yours would seem to be one of , if not, the earliest of the "streamlines", the one linked to is later noting it has the inlaid crescent. The crescent seems a later feature but my OS leaf green doesn't have one, how that all fits in I don't know !! Maybe the one linked to is later than it appears. Time wise yours is probably '27/'28 , I suspect by '29 the transformation was fairly advanced ( with a few ???).

Regards
Hugh

Thank you again Hugh! There seem to be so many slightly different variants that it quickly becomes quite difficult to figure out which one came when and in what order. My quest is to figure out the Conkin Endura Symetrik. It may take many moons.
It would seem that there is much more known about many of the other pen makers.
-Preston

Okay to correct a previous comment, the Sheaffer Balance appeared end of '28 ( with a transitional model dated around mid ' 28 by Daniel K.) meaning this and similiar pens will be 1929 or early 1930.

Regards
Hugh

Okay to correct a previous comment, the Sheaffer Balance appeared end of '28 ( with a transitional model dated around mid ' 28 by Daniel K.) meaning this and similiar pens will be 1929 or early 1930.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

I'm curious as to what constitutes a transition model.

regards

d

Okay to correct a previous comment, the Sheaffer Balance appeared end of '28 ( with a transitional model dated around mid ' 28 by Daniel K.) meaning this and similiar pens will be 1929 or early 1930.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

I'm curious as to what constitutes a transition model.

regards

d

Hi David,

Whether rightly or wrongly I use the term to describe those like Preston's ( and the one I linked to) which are neither a flat top or a standard streamlined E/Symetrik..

Regards
Hugh

Hi David,

Whether rightly or wrongly I use the term to describe those like Preston's ( and the one I linked to) which are neither a flat top or a standard streamlined E/Symetrik..

Regards
Hugh

Sorry. I was unclear.

The Conklin material is very interesting, and I find Conklin discussions are far too rare online. This is good stuff.

I meant, that I wonder how one would define a "transitional" Sheaffer Balance, in the context that was offered.

regards

david

Hi David,

Whether rightly or wrongly I use the term to describe those like Preston's ( and the one I linked to) which are neither a flat top or a standard streamlined E/Symetrik..

Regards
Hugh

Sorry. I was unclear.

The Conklin material is very interesting, and I find Conklin discussions are far too rare online. This is good stuff.

I meant, that I wonder how one would define a "transitional" Sheaffer Balance, in the context that was offered.

regards

david

Oh...not up to speed with Daniel K.s latest !! See here

Regards
Hugh

Oh...not up to speed with Daniel K.s latest !! See here

Regards
Hugh

Heady article. He seems to describe mainly early Balance variants. That element is not so new. I'm impressed such a big note has such mild response. We probably would have more responses here in 12 hours. And looking over the full page of Sheaffer subjects on the Sheaffer first page, I'm impressed how few cover pre 1960's pens. Seems our little Board, with < 2% the membership of the bigger board has at least as much going on in the arena of old pens. Neat.

-d

It has been suggested by someone over at the "other" board, that this may be another transitional Endura from 1930 ish. What I found interesting about this pen was the streamlined styled flat top, crescent inlay, and no Endura lines. It even entered my mind that maybe it was a fake, but the nib has pretty much convinced me it is legit. Love those Conklin nibs, although this one is surprisingly stiff with very little flex. Does 1930 sound about right? Has anyone ever seen one like it? Is it a fake?

Note - This is my first time trying to post a photo. I apologize in advance for photo quality (a whole nother subject ) and if pictures have been inserted incorrecty. I understood that it would be best to use share function in gallery, physically copy and then paste BBCode URL from my gallery directly into post. Images have been compressed before uploading to gallery. If there is an easier/better way .....

Thanks,
Cynthia

Hi Cynthia,

Okay yours is later than the oversize in the OP, the clip on yours is a later one. The feed, clip and cap bands are consistent with the 1930 ish models ( note how the cap bands are the same as the leaf green in the OP and slightly different to those on the black cap next to it) but the 1930 catalog shows the streamline process as complete and again like the leaf green in the OP except the catalog pens carry the crescent. Little doubt yours is a genuine Conklin and most likely a transitional model, also most likely a late one. I date it late '29 early '30 but I don't know if Conklin "played" around with these semi streamline models into the '30's. Nice pen !!

Out of interest this same ( or fairly similiar ) shape does occur in later Chicago made Enduras.

Regards
Hugh

to add...


a page from the 1930 catalog.



An early OS E/Symetrik note the older style clip and no crescent , next to the standard 1930 leaf green and a later style.



A Chicago Endura, not the quality of the early models !! Hope this is of interest.

Regards
Hugh

In reply to the last two posts I'll add this.

In looking at the page previous to the one Hugh added (from the 1930 Conklin Catalog) you can see the exact pen which Cynthia has pictured. It is listed as a Conklin Endura 67C (Black Long w/Clip).

I am guessing that by transitional it is meant that it is a model which is transitioning from the Endura to the Endura Symetrik. I would say this is not so. I would rather say that it is perhaps a tweak to the Endura to streamline it to one of its latter forms. It really is an adjustment very similar to what Parker did with the Duofold.

The streamlined Endura (as I'll refer to it) is most definitely not a step towards the Endura Symetrik. This can be seen in the catalog numbering. The black, long, clipped Endura in the 1926 catalog is called 67C. In the 1930 catalog the now streamlined black, long, clipped Endura is called 67C. The Endura Symetrik was called 68 and whatever the suffix was.

This period is really confusing to try and figure out what is what with Conklin.

I'm happy to get to talk about Conklin's with other people who really like them!

Preston

P.S. Cynthia- Welcome! 1930 would be exactly correct for the date of your pen. It is as Hugh said, entirely real! If you are not already, I would strongly encourage you to join Pen Collectors of America. By joining you will receive the fantastic PENNANT magazine (I think 3 issues per year) and access to the PCA library. That is where I (and I assume Hugh) are getting the catalogs to reference.

.

Edited by plmadding, 21 February 2013 - 05:13 AM.

to add...



A Chicago Endura, not the quality of the early models !! Hope this is of interest.

Regards
Hugh

That plastic is somewhat disturbing. Hmmm....

regards

David

In reply to the last two posts I'll add this.

In looking at the page previous to the one Hugh added (from the 1930 Conklin Catalog) you can see the exact pen which Cynthia has pictured. It is listed as a Conklin Endura 67C (Black Long w/Clip).

I am guessing that by transitional it is meant that it is a model which is transitioning from the Endura to the Endura Symetrik. I would say this is not so. I would rather say that it is perhaps a tweak to the Endura to streamline it to one of its latter forms. It really is an adjustment very similar to what Parker did with the Duofold.

The streamlined Endura (as I'll refer to it) is most definitely not a step towards the Endura Symetrik. This can be seen in the catalog numbering. The black, long, clipped Endura in the 1926 catalog is called 67C. In the 1930 catalog the now streamlined black, long, clipped Endura is called 67C. The Endura Symetrik was called 68 and whatever the suffix was.

This period is really confusing to try and figure out what is what with Conklin.

I'm happy to get to talk about Conklin's with other people who really like them!

Preston

P.S. Cynthia- Welcome! 1930 would be exactly correct for the date of your pen. It is as Hugh said, entirely real! If you are not already, I would strongly encourage you to join Pen Collectors of America. By joining you will receive the fantastic PENNANT magazine (I think 3 issues per year) and access to the PCA library. That is where I (and I assume Hugh) are getting the catalogs to reference.

Hi Preston,

I disagree , the 67C is a senior black flat top. It varies from Cynthia's in that her's does have tapered ends , carries the inlaid crescent , has no grooved bands and the clip lower set. The blue flat top (pictured) is also a 67 (BC). Little doubt the 67C is in the parentage and very close but enough differences to differentiate. Whether it's a "transitional" model or a line simply discontinued is beyond me, I'd speculate probably the latter as your OS definitely shows the ends rounded and is earlier. My catalog is a PCA one but I bought mine on ebay...

Out of interest did you acquire the E/S I mentioned, cheap I think .

Regards
Hugh

Preston,
You answered the main question I had, which was where can I find this catalog. Have been meaning to join PCA for quite a while. Today is the day. I've just got to see this for myself. Thanks for the welcome. I posted a couple of pictures of this pen on the "other" a couple years ago and I got an educated guess, which is good. Here I get page numbers in a specific catalogue and the place to go to see it, which is fantastic. Love to talk Toledo Conklins too. Thanks!!

Hugh,
Thanks for taking the time to post pictures and your thoughts. Will check out the catalogue pictured. Very helpful. If anyone has a "67C" to measure by, the pen I have measures just under 5" capped. This does seem to be a time of confusion for the company. Still seems pretty safe to say this pen is legit and dates to sometime in the year 1930. I know more now than I did before. Love this forum!

David i
Chicago Conklin somewhat disturbing and always sad. Chicago people sucked every dime they could get from the name in what 10 years? Has anyone ever seen a Conklin marked Chicago with any quality? Sounds like they did start off with some original Conklin parts, but wonder if they ever attempted to make anything decent.

Here's the cataloged pen



and a couple flat tops for measurement ( a senior and standard), earlier single cap bands but same sizes as later ones.



Regards
Hugh