55 replies to this topic

[John Jenkins]

Regarding the PCA library, I'm close to gaining permission to add Pen Worlds. I've got most issues starting with Volume 1 No 1. A mammoth scanning project, but I think well worth it.
JJ

[Hugh]

Not many pen books on my shelf, one by Erano , with pics by some guy named Isaacson, which is great and well put together and Da Book which was all I could find years ago. While Franks book gets fairly heavily criticised it really isn't that bad and is good for fairly basic info. ( I changed to an electric heat gun after...whooosh...though), it also persuaded me to avoid the more complicated filling pens that require specialised tools if I wanted to do repairs "at home" ( a very good thing I think). The one thing I still can't work out is how he managed to obtain the various word counts per pen that seem to defy logic, apart from David I. assertion he was just plain old fashioned wrong!! ( and this appears to be the case after looking at every possibility in detail and at length with David..), I still wonder if there's something simple being overlooked in how it was done that in part may explain how the clear anomalies could possibly arise.

Regards
Hugh

[JonSzanto]

I believe there are only a couple of editions of the Blue Book, with the difference being in the price guide (a separately printed insert). I do not think the main text was changed.

Thanks, David. This is what I'm ready to pull the trigger on, and I'm assuming everyone's reference to "the Blue Book" relates to the pricing info:

[david i]

Not many pen books on my shelf, one by Erano , with pics by some guy named Isaacson, which is great and well put together and Da Book which was all I could find years ago. While Franks book gets fairly heavily criticised it really isn't that bad and is good for fairly basic info. ( I changed to an electric heat gun after...whooosh...though), it also persuaded me to avoid the more complicated filling pens that require specialised tools if I wanted to do repairs "at home" ( a very good thing I think). The one thing I still can't work out is how he managed to obtain the various word counts per pen that seem to defy logic, apart from David I. assertion he was just plain old fashioned wrong!! ( and this appears to be the case after looking at every possibility in detail and at length with David..), I still wonder if there's something simple being overlooked in how it was done that in part may explain how the clear anomalies could possibly arise.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

I don't recall asserting he was "just plain old fashioned wrong!!".

I merely noted Frank possibly used insufficient sample size. It is possible that a particular Snorkel writes more words than a particular Vacumatic Maxima, but that when controlled for ink flow (Including point width), it all comes down to ink capacity of the pen, with snorkel not having a particularly large capacity.

regards

david

[david i]

I believe there are only a couple of editions of the Blue Book, with the difference being in the price guide (a separately printed insert). I do not think the main text was changed.

Thanks, David. This is what I'm ready to pull the trigger on, and I'm assuming everyone's reference to "the Blue Book" relates to the pricing info:

Hi Jon,

That's not the "Blue Book" which is... blue.

The book you show is the handbook. Much less instructional material




regards

d

[JonSzanto]

That's not the "Blue Book" which is... blue.

Again, thanks. This completely proves that there are no dumb questions.

Except here's another one: is there any background on a "Limited Edition" of the book?

Edited by JonSzanto, 01 November 2012 - 10:13 PM.

[david i]

That's not the "Blue Book" which is... blue.

Again, thanks. This completely proves that there are no dumb questions.

Except here's another one: is there any background on a "Limited Edition" of the book?

Well... i do own one...

-d

[JonSzanto]

Well... i do own one...

Color me surprised. Same book? If so, might as well have that version; if not, I'll grab one of the Blues.

[Hugh]

Not many pen books on my shelf, one by Erano , with pics by some guy named Isaacson, which is great and well put together and Da Book which was all I could find years ago. While Franks book gets fairly heavily criticised it really isn't that bad and is good for fairly basic info. ( I changed to an electric heat gun after...whooosh...though), it also persuaded me to avoid the more complicated filling pens that require specialised tools if I wanted to do repairs "at home" ( a very good thing I think). The one thing I still can't work out is how he managed to obtain the various word counts per pen that seem to defy logic, apart from David I. assertion he was just plain old fashioned wrong!! ( and this appears to be the case after looking at every possibility in detail and at length with David..), I still wonder if there's something simple being overlooked in how it was done that in part may explain how the clear anomalies could possibly arise.

Regards
Hugh

Hi Hugh,

I don't recall asserting he was "just plain old fashioned wrong!!".

I merely noted Frank possibly used insufficient sample size. It is possible that a particular Snorkel writes more words than a particular Vacumatic Maxima, but that when controlled for ink flow (Including point width), it all comes down to ink capacity of the pen, with snorkel not having a particularly large capacity.

regards

david

Hi David,

That may not be an accurate quote.....although I think it conveys the correct meaning or intention I agree with your reasoning, I like to work backwards in these kind of things (ie assume it correct then try to find reasons that support it and examine them....in this case none where found supporting the claim) . If he did achieve the results other factors came into play that he either overlooked or didn't detect and could include minor variations in nib width, ink flow.

Regards
Hugh

[David Nishimura]

Thanks, David. This is what I'm ready to pull the trigger on, and I'm assuming everyone's reference to "the Blue Book" relates to the pricing info:

Don't waste your money on it.


Fischler and Schneider wrote three books. In order, they are the Blue Book, the Brown Book, and the paperback (shown in your image). The first two are large hardbacks with much text and many color pictures. The third was a cut-price offering that really can't compare.

[JonSzanto]

Don't waste your money on it.

Thanks. I now have a pretty good overview of all of the books. One thing of interest is that I eventually landed on Mr. Schneider's site, which includes, among many other things, a very nice collection of waffle recipes.

What an interesting world we live in.

[Jerry Adair]

Coming in late here.

I would also recommend the Fischler and Schneider "Blue Book". It has come down in price over the years, but the information inside has held up very well, all in all.

I should also note that the nature of publishing has changed radically. In years past, we would have seen a natural progression in a newer field of collecting (and study) from general works to more focused monographs. And though we have seen this to a degree -- exemplified by David Shepherd's Parker volumes and various books devoted to Italian brands -- the move to digital publishing has left many would-be authors holding back. Publishing a traditional book is expensive, and the audience for a specialized monograph will be limited. In addition, the rapid digitization of primary sources is opening up new research possibilities, and a diligent researcher will be reluctant to publish until all these new avenues are at least preliminarily explored.

I would love to write a Waterman monograph. As is, I feel there are far too many gaps in our knowledge -- gaps that will be filled in soon, rather than things that we will never know and which need not hold us back. So for now, if you want up-to-date Waterman knowledge, books aren't where you'll find it, for the most part.

As for Frank Dubiel's book, I feel it is of interest primarily as an historical artifact. It's a bit like a cookbook written by an eccentric chef, full of omissions and idiosyncratically bad recommendations: OK for an experienced chef to mine for what is useful, but terribly dangerous for an amateur in the kitchen.

David, that is what I said also except I said "not for the faint of hear or hack newbie". I think that goes for every cook book as well. Unfortunately sometimes a bad experience is our best teacher.
Jerry

[Procyon]

Hi guys,

The book I still go to is the F&S Blue book. I have most of the other books mentioned here, but can't find Shepherd's Duofold book anywhere. If anyone knows where I can get a copy, I would appreciate it.

Just a caution about the Blue Book. I used to have the 1st Edition, and the prices were on a separate sheet. When more than one pen was in a picture, the caption under the picture generally listed these left to right - usual for English, I would think. However, for some reason, the price sheet listed them right to left. This is from memory, I took the book to work when I got the 2nd Edition, and someone made off with it.

When the 2nd Edition came out, the main change was to include prices with the captions of the pictures. However, there was some confusion because of this right to left/ left to right thing (at least that's my guess). This resulted in values being assigned to the wrong pens in some cases. An example, page 71 Waterman #94 hard rubber - they have the Olive pen valued higher than the Rose Ripple. A small matter, but something to be aware of.

Regards,
Allan Goforth

[Pensee]

Woah! Didn't think this would be such a conversation starter...

Can't multi-quote & reply to everyone or would be overlong. Will be long as is, but thanks everyone for taking time to reply. Will just hit some highlights as it were.

Also apologize in advance. For some reason cut-n-paste {quote} {/quote} syntax with username & date/time-stamp leads to error msg. If quoted, am sure you'll know what you posted! ; )

-------

Summary of suggestions as appeared. If a title about *collecting* pens has been overlooked, please let know.

1.) FPOTW - F&S 1st edition

2.) 'Waterman Past & Present' M. Davis & Gary L.

3.) 'The Chronicle of the Fountain Pen'- Martine, Leite, and Gagean

4.) 'Fountain Pens United States of America and United Kingdom' - Lambrou

5.) Join PCA - 3 magazines per year + access to database

6.) Collectible Fountain Pens - G.Bowens

7.) Fountain Pens: History, Repair, and Current Values - C Lawence

The year-by-year chronicle format may not be to everyone's taste but there's a lot of information there. Most of it's sound, though we can always argue over the minutiae of dates.

Regards,

Deb

Heh. Minutiae indeed. Embarrassing about feed question I'd posted. Had spent close to an hour searching L&P, then link to old LEW Co. ads.

Along comes David N. Probably took him 30 seconds to look at e-bay pen & dash off quick sentence-- "feed is Aiken Lambert"

Talk about a humbling... How *does* he do it?!

Brings up good question though.

Is FPB appropriate place to discuss pen history or keep queries to *collecting*?

If FPB confined to collecting, forum for pen history?

Asking because if FPB mainly for collecting, might be SOL.

Pen history on 'bigger' board seems to have different demographic & different take on "history." (Hottest topic there appears to be "How many colors for Lami Safari?" which has racked up an astonishing 500+ replies.) According to wiki, the Safari was was introduced in 1980. That's game for history now? Yikes! I'm only 47 & went to college in the 80's! : 0 !

I have... many... pen books. I certainly advocate reading pen books, keeping in mind that as with most secondary sources, errors abound.

Reductio ad absurdum? How does one learn to spot errors in books when the the books themselves contain them?

I kind of wish I had kept my mouth shut - fingers in my pockets - as all I was providing Bruce was the title for the question he posted

You answered my question, so thanks for your time. No 'wrong' impression from my end at least!

Sharing opinions and even having disagreements is part and parcel with the learning process.

There are many good ways to approach collecting and restoration. Here, you are seeing a serious crowd play through the issues

d

Long as don't get caught in crossfire!

Here's what worries me David & will now stray into possible minefield. Treading very carefully...

Notice a couple of members seem to have alienated others & may not be welcome here any more. None of my business, but want to avoid that fate because FPB good source for getting educated about collecting pens when no access to clubs or meeting more experienced collectors at dinner for example.

So... If ask too many dumb questions just tell me & will try to get over "newbie disease" (posting overmuch.)

Regarding the PCA library, I'm close to gaining permission to add Pen Worlds. I've got most issues starting with Volume 1 No 1. A mammoth scanning project, but I think well worth it.

Had a look over there & seems to be mostly modern pens. Think modern pens stink on ice but that's just my opinion. Anyway, hope you're successful! Nice thing to do for us on your part.

When the 2nd Edition came out, the main change was to include prices with the captions of the pictures. However, there was some confusion because of this right to left/ left to right thing (at least that's my guess). This resulted in values being assigned to the wrong pens in some cases. An example, page 71 Waterman #94 hard rubber - they have the Olive pen valued higher than the Rose Ripple. A small matter, but something to be aware of.

Thanks for heads up. Will go w/1st ed then.

Enjoy weekend everybody & thanks again for replies.

--Bruce

Addendum: David N answers question had been too chicken to ask.

Regarding Waterman H_x, why not publish or blog what *is* known, or (if into statistics) a meta analysis of data currently out there?

Answer: With digital publishing or digital 'on demand' publishing, risk others unethically using *your* work without giving you credit & then proclaiming himself or herself an *expert* when really not!

Can't say as I blame you. (Even though some sort of synthesis would certainly be of help to some of us!)

Edited by Pensee, 02 November 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[Procyon]

Pensee wrote:

"Thanks for heads up. Will go w/1st ed then."


Oops, didn't really mean to recommend that. The prices were also adjusted in the 2nd Edition. While the values are not very up to date, they are still sort a good guide. In the 1st Edition the prices were on a separate sheet so you had to look up by page number. That was actually sort of painful. The 2nd Edition is probably more useful, even with some of the problems I mentioned. Also could be hard to find the 1st Edition, although I don't know for sure.

Regards,
Allan

[david i]

Brings up good question though.

Is FPB appropriate place to discuss pen history or keep queries to *collecting*?

If FPB confined to collecting, forum for pen history?

Asking because if FPB mainly for collecting, might be SOL.

Pen history on 'bigger' board seems to have different demographic & different take on "history." (Hottest topic there appears to be "How many colors for Lami Safari?" which has racked up an astonishing 500+ replies.) According to wiki, the Safari was was introduced in 1980. That's game for history now? Yikes! I'm only 47 & went to college in the 80's! : 0 !


--Bruces

Hi Bruce,

Swamped and racing today. Probably more answer to follow if the night is quiet or in a few days.

Let me start by addressing just the question you posed, now highlighted above, in red.

Brief Answer:

Note the heading of the forum in which this thread appears,

Elements of Collecting: Hunting, Valuing and Polemicizing
What it takes to collect well. History of pendom, storage, grading, ethics/philosophy, and even goings-on at other boards.

History thus explicitly is invited, and how could it not be? How can one collect well old pens in vacuo ?

The difference between "pretty red striped pen", and "Frankenpen mixing cap of 1952 Canadian Parker Vacumatic Major with barrel of 1939 USA Parker Vacumatic Streamlined Standard" arguably is... history

Pen hoarding is... collecting. And FPB is for collectors of pens. History no doubt is one of the most important aspects of collecting for serious collectors.

And, beyond all that, this Board is for pretty much whatever pen collectors want to discuss, though-- perhaps as intended-- it attracts those whose interest tends to transcend "oohh... pretty red stripes... me like"

regards

d

[david i]

Long as don't get caught in crossfire!

Here's what worries me David & will now stray into possible minefield. Treading very carefully...

Notice a couple of members seem to have alienated others & may not be welcome here any more. None of my business, but want to avoid that fate because FPB good source for getting educated about collecting pens when no access to clubs or meeting more experienced collectors at dinner for example.

So... If ask too many dumb questions just tell me & will try to get over "newbie disease" (posting overmuch.)

Hi again,

No minefield and no need to tread carefully. Indeed, I'd venture the guess that amongst pen boards, the need to tread carefully is less present here than anywhere else, at least to degree FBP has had to expunge fewer people than anywhere else has... currently about one person. I'll leave those who like to play to stats to have fun with that

If we manage to have to lose just one person every two years, life indeed will be grand.

To best of my knowledge one person has been dismembered, and whether that person is an independent collector or was speaking for another collector, her apparently limited intellect and/or character, which caused her approach to disagreement to be, "Kiss my...", made her presence here pointless. Emphatic disagreement is a good thing. I've had (go figure) my share of intense discussion. As to who is welcome here? No level of pen knowledge is too great or too limited for this place. It was designed to encourage interest in pen collecting. A mix of arguably knowledgeable old guard and motivated newbies make such things work the best.

regards

d

[John Danza]

Long as don't get caught in crossfire!

Here's what worries me David & will now stray into possible minefield. Treading very carefully...

Notice a couple of members seem to have alienated others & may not be welcome here any more. None of my business, but want to avoid that fate because FPB good source for getting educated about collecting pens when no access to clubs or meeting more experienced collectors at dinner for example.

So... If ask too many dumb questions just tell me & will try to get over "newbie disease" (posting overmuch.)

As David noted, have no worries in this regard. If users were blocked for disagreeing with each other (such as happens on FPN), there would be no one left on this board! When dishonesty happens, as did in the one case David noted, then that's another story.

Courteous disagreement and discussion is how we all learn and arrive at an accurate conclusion on a topic. That's why this board is a great learning center. No one here has ultimate knowledge and there's always something new popping up in a desk drawer somewhere that expands our knowledge on a subject. So feel free to engage in the discussion with your input and thoughts.

[John Danza]

Regarding the PCA library, I'm close to gaining permission to add Pen Worlds. I've got most issues starting with Volume 1 No 1. A mammoth scanning project, but I think well worth it.

Had a look over there & seems to be mostly modern pens. Think modern pens stink on ice but that's just my opinion. Anyway, hope you're successful! Nice thing to do for us on your part.

Unfortunately this is true and has been for the past 3-4 years when the editors there made a concious decision to exclude vintage pens from their scope. They announced it and immediately lost me forever. However, for most of their history they addressed both vintage and new pens and there were some fabulous articles. One I hung on to was written by Fultz and Dan Zazove about Parker trench pens from the late teens. An excellent article.

At this point, The Pennant is the only periodical in the U.S. dedicated to vintage pens. The publication from the Writing Equipment Society (WES) in Britain does so as well, but of course has more of a slant on GB and European topics.

[John Jenkins]

Regarding the PCA library, I'm close to gaining permission to add Pen Worlds. I've got most issues starting with Volume 1 No 1. A mammoth scanning project, but I think well worth it.

Had a look over there & seems to be mostly modern pens. Think modern pens stink on ice but that's just my opinion. Anyway, hope you're successful! Nice thing to do for us on your part.

I've jumped the gun and have the first 16 mags online. Worth the price of admission for "Plewa's Klips" and everything else is a bonus.
JJ