9 replies to this topic

[Pensee]

Hi Everyone,

Just when I thought beginning to get a handle on these things...

Cardinal Filigree Pen

'Filigree' (trefoil vine) pattern around early as 1905? Don't have a catalog for that year. Earliest I could find was 'cardinal filigree' on p.. 35 of 1908 catalog.

Time to revise my notes?

thx & enjoy weekend!

--Bruce

[Procyon]

In the F&S Blue Book, page 20, there is a picture of a Waterman 424 filigree over BHR (not trefoil - more art nouveau) with the date 1898-1901. Caption says, "This is the earliest example of a Filigree design overlay pen." I don't know if the filigree was in the catalogs or not.

On the next page there is an overlay (not filigree) dated 1896 in a unique "Chased Twist" design. The caption says only one known and never cataloged. That seems to be the earliest overlay I can find.

[David Nishimura]

The trefoil pattern overlay first appears in 1907, advertised alongside earlier patterns. More detail here.

[Jerry Adair]

David
You need to write the book
Jerry

[David Nishimura]

Still so many details to be nailed down first, Jerry. In the meantime, I try to keep posting info as I find it.

[Pensee]

In the F&S Blue Book, page 20, there is a picture of a Waterman 424 filigree over BHR (not trefoil - more art nouveau) with the date 1898-1901. Caption says, "This is the earliest example of a Filigree design overlay pen." I don't know if the filigree was in the catalogs or not.

On the next page there is an overlay (not filigree) dated 1896 in a unique "Chased Twist" design. The caption says only one known and never cataloged. That seems to be the earliest overlay I can find.

Interesting about catalogs. For example 1902 catalog doesn't appear to mention full silver 'filigree' for cone cap models & yet from ads claiming 1902 date-- they *were* out there!

Maybe I just have a poor quality scan or it's incomplete.

The trefoil pattern overlay first appears in 1907, advertised alongside earlier patterns. More detail here.

Nice to have my own efforts (more a hobby than formal research) confirmed! ; )

Pen Prophet & ads (claiming) prior 1907 just didn't show 'trefoil.'

Your link BTW also had some *very* useful nuggets for pen spotting-- flatter crowns & 'blockier' cutouts = later production. Into the notebook it goes!

David
You need to write the book
Jerry

Heh. I'd asked/requested the same thing! David was kind enough to explain why "not yet" in an era of digital publishing. Least we have ref pages at Vintagepens & his blog.

And speaking of blog. Never ceases to amaze. Comment there led to discovery of old American Stationer issues on-line!

Some might find my enthusiasm for old stuff like that amusing, but for me it's giving a dog a bone to chew on.

Now, rather than having to take someones word for it, the Waterman ads are documented!

Slight digression: From over at L&P-- infer "RHR" is working on getting all issues of them on-line, or doesn't have the issues he lists in orange?

thx everyone & enjoy your week

--Bruce

[David Nishimura]

"rhr" is George Kovalenko.

George posted that list of American Stationer issues available online as a shared research resource. He, however, is not the one digitizing the issues. Like the rest of us, he is dependent on Google Books and all the various academic digitization projects.

It's worth noting that pen companies did not publish comprehensive catalogs on a regular basis. Waterman's 1908 catalog was very much out of the ordinary; the details of its publication are discussed here. In subsequent decades, Waterman again published catalogs of similar size and scale (albeit at fairly long intervals), but Waterman catalogs prior to 1908 were much more modest publications which listed only a limited selection of models and variants.

One does have to use ad dates carefully when those ads have been removed from their original volumes and offered for sale (or reproduced as references). It is not uncommon for ads to be listed with dates that are incorrect.

[Pensee]

It's worth noting that pen companies did not publish comprehensive catalogs on a regular basis. Waterman's 1908 catalog was very much out of the ordinary; the details of its publication are discussed here.

Left comment thanking you two. Subject to blogger approval... ; )

Waterman catalogs prior to 1908 were much more modest publications which listed only a limited selection of models and variants.

Ah! That would explain absence of coin filler model that's always been a mystery to me. It's not in c. 1914 catalog & cannot locate a 1913 catalog. Maybe best to save CF for a topic of its own.

thx

--Bruce

[David Nishimura]

The Waterman coin-filler is unfortunately very poorly documented. No proper catalogs published during its very short production run, and it is shown in only a handful of ads.

Just to emphasize, we have to get away from thinking that catalogs were published every year, or even every few years. Some pen companies may never have published proper catalogs at all. When Waterman published that 1908 catalog, they clearly expected it to serve as a reference for some years to come.

[Pensee]

The Waterman coin-filler is unfortunately very poorly documented. No proper catalogs published during its very short production run, and it is shown in only a handful of ads.

Just to emphasize, we have to get away from thinking that catalogs were published every year, or even every few years. Some pen companies may never have published proper catalogs at all. When Waterman published that 1908 catalog, they clearly expected it to serve as a reference for some years to come.

Well so much for finding out why they even made them in the first place...

Probably silly question, but does anyone know what happened to LEW co. internal documents? Seems like they would be definitive source if not lost to posterity.

Thanks-- as always-- for clearing up my misunderstanding about catalogs. Had thought Waterman would've been a bit like Sears & Roebuck--- publishing annually with an eye towards strong 4th quarter & so on.

thx

--Bruce