26 replies to this topic

[Roger W.]

Do you know how many lifetime flattops there are?  How about the smaller models or radite flattops altogether?  Some of these are non-catalog but, fit in the regular model lineup.  Count the double rings as a separate model.  Don't count the two thicknesses of 3-25's as separate models.  I think I've got a good count and you may be surprised at how many there are.  I'll start you off - there are only two pygmys (already an exception area as there is a green example known but, we won't count that one either).  So give me how many lifetimes and total radite flattops - feel free to guess.

 

Roger W.

[david i]

Do I know how  many  Sheaffer Lifetime flat-tops there are?

 

Hell, they probably made millions. Hard to know how many survived...

 

Only two pigmies?  Aren't there a couple metal patterns in addition to the two catalogued plastic colors?

 

How far to push the trim differences?

 

Why not count different diameters?

 

 

OK then.  Let's start with different styles, because I sure don't want to guess how many actual pens exist.

 

• Orange (Coral) Celluoid flat tops. (note the 1st three 3-25s below are identical to the 46 specials save for markings) I am counting different diameters here.

 

• 46 Special  Long Standard
• 46 Speical Short Standard
• 46 Special Short Standard ringtop
• 3-25 Long Standard
• 3-25 Short Standard
• 3-25 Short Standard ringtop
• 3-25 long Slender high-set clip (off catalogue)
• 3-25 short Slender high-set clip (off catalogue)
• 3-25 long Slender low set clip (off catalogue)
• 3-25 short slender low set clip (off catalogue)
• 3-25 short slender ring top  (off catalogue)
• bandless chrome trim long standard (off catalogue)
• bandless chrome trim short standard  (off catalogue)

That gives 13 orange celluloid sheaffer flat tops.  Additionally I've seen even more anomalous wide cap-band short-standard pens, possibly both ringtop and clip, giving 15 different variants.   I will leave out weird service pens which have a hodge-podge element to them that is less mainstream than even thee other off-catalogue items.  Note that one of mine is an orange standard diameter pen with late short flat-ball clip.

 

 

 

regards

 

David

[david i]

Cherry Red Celluloid (is the Pigmy Celluloid?) Sheaffer flat-tops

 

• Pigmy (teeny thing)
• Secretary Oversize
• Secretary Short-Standard Clip
• Secretary Long-Standard Clip (edit for typs. "Short Standard Ringtop)
• Loaner Oversize with "non-Sheaffer style" Z-clip. Often found with white metal clip, possibly also gold tone clip, did they all start out gold tone?  Do we want to add another pen to list just for different color clip?
• Loaner Oversize with conventional Sheaffer clip, possibly cap differentiated from Secretary by white metal (need to pull the collection)

Not sure there were short Loaners.

 

But, we have now 6 Cherry celluloid flat-tops at least.

 

 

regards

 

david

[Roger W.]

I already said slender 3-25 were not being counted.  I need to add we are not counting loaners as the variety there alone would be vast, mostly non catalog and often made up of available parts.  I'll admit I don't know what to make of the off catalog wide band coral's though they need added in but, that will be a go forward.  The slender 3-25's will be added as V.2 when we get around to it.  Also, we are just counting radite and not metal (pygmy).

 

Why do you have Secretary oversize and Secretary Long standard clip - they are not two separate pens.  There is R'Secy - the oversize, RTSC and RTSR the short clip and ringtop pens.

 

Roger W.

[david i]

I already said slender 3-25 were not being counted.

 

Actually, you hadn't said that.

 

 I need to add we are not counting loaners as the variety there alone would be vast, mostly non catalog and often made up of available parts.

 

 

 

The red loaners are distinct enough and significant enough that I'd count them.  The red loaners were not catalogued?

 

 

 I'll admit I don't know what to make of the off catalog wide band coral's though they need added in but, that will be a go forward.  The slender 3-25's will be added as V.2 when we get around to it.  Also, we are just counting radite and not metal (pygmy).

 

 

 

Note this was not cited in your original post, but ok. Let's exclude metal pens.

 

 

Why do you have Secretary oversize and Secretary Long standard clip - they are not two separate pens.  There is R'Secy - the oversize, RTSC and RTSR the short clip and ringtop pens.

 

 

That was typo. I'd meant to write the third Sec variant, Short-Ring. I've placed addendum in original note.

 

regards

 

d

[Roger W.]

OK, I know you're not used to the cold so I'll give you a pass.  I said don't count the two girths of 3-25's as separate models (i.e. don't count the slenders).  The one red Z clip loaner is catalog - still not counting it.  What part of Sheaffer Radite flattop trivia lets in metal pens?!?!  

For everyone else just don't get hung up on too much of the details and make a stab at it.  Total radite lifetimes and total including the non lifetimes (22's, 46's, Secretarys, 3-25's, 5-30's, 7-30's and the lowly Pygmy).

 

Roger W.

[david i]

 I said don't count the two girths of 3-25's as separate models

 

 

I read that. So, we can count the slenders but not the standards? 

 

Do you know how many lifetime flattops there are?  How about the smaller models or radite flattops altogether?

 

 

 

Note that there are multiple, sometimes conflicting, elements to your post.

 

Flat top metal pens are flat tops, "or radiate" implies an "either" not an "only".

 

Sheesh

 

regards

 

d

[david i]

Teasing Roger aside, this notion has great merit.

 

Breaking pens into clusters, we can identify (including some of the size differences, trim differences, etc) pretty well all the celluloid flattops.

Let's go for it.

 

-d

[FarmBoy]

"51"


Wait, that's Parker

[Roger W.]

51 is a number - we'll take it for total radite flattops and I'll say it is low.

 

Roger W.

[david i]

Doubt anyone will be able to call how many jellybeans in the jar, but the process of coming up with the real number would be worthwhile unto itself.

Besides, I've now given you Orange and Red.

 

We just need to address Black, Jade, Black-and-Pearl, and Blue, and we're about done!

 

regards

 

d

[Roger W.]

David;

 

You have only given me red.  It is like black grapes and white grapes, there aren't red grapes.  You have described one code "R" (I know how much you love the codes).  You are right on all of the others to be covered.  Black and Pearl is at the end so have more than half not even cataloged because Sheaffer stopped any support in writing for flattops by that time.  The variety of lifetimes is staggering.  So for a type that was the flagship from late 1924 until 1929, during a staggeringly good economy, we have a short time and a lot of options.

 

Roger W.

[David Nishimura]

Breaking pens into clusters

 

Please don't

Edited by David Nishimura, 08 January 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Teej47]

 

Breaking pens into clusters

 

Please don't

 

Not even clusters of red grapes? 

(Or perhaps orange...)

[Procyon]

I think I am lost in Metaphor-Land. 

[david i]

I'm still trying to figure out just which pens Roger actually wants to discuss...

 

regards

 

David

[Roger W.]

David;

 

Come on, radite flattops with a couple caveats - it ain't that hard.  Sheaffer didn't leave any of it straight forward for such a short run.  Code wise a double banded LT is the same as a single banded which is due to the fact that the double bands were only going to be on 5-30's and 7-30's.  That does not greatly impact the count though as it only adds 6 "models".  

 

I still think we should have someone guess how many LT radite flattops there are.  Came only in three colors as reds were never LT's.

 

Roger W.

[Rick Krantz]

230

[david i]

Hi Roger,

 

I''m happy to chat on any subset you propose. I'm just not clear what you were/are asking.  Which are your limits?  Radite?  I offered red and orange, but you said I hadn't.  Do you want white dot only? You said size-- where 3-25 is offered in two diameters_ doesn't count?  But, do we can use Slender or STadnard as our one size?  Are you asking if different trim tweaks should be considered? How do I know?  This is your thread, you gotta define what you want considered.

Me?  I'm charmed by notion of trying to list all the known plastic flat-tops. Maybe to make initial round easy, we can   skip post 1930 stuff. Anything without a lever pin can be done later.

 

We can go by Size/Model/Color, then trim evolution

r

egards

 

d

[Fred H]

This is what's meant by polemicizing?  My brain hurts.

 

Fred

Edited by Fred H, 09 January 2014 - 03:08 AM.