22 replies to this topic

[FarmBoy]

Thoughts?

 

Other interesting 51s in the completed listings tab.

[Jos]

my thoughts:

 

- transparent hood: crystal clear plastic does not look like being born in 1946, suspect to be a recent remake, possibly Argentinian

- reddish collector: a common transparent collector with traces of red ink in it (is actually also hinted at in the description)

- blind cap is misaligned (not flush with barrel): bad restoration

 

So contrary to description, I doubt that this pen was ever "part of Parker's marketing plan" ...

 

PS:

forgot to mention the brass filler unit but at least it is mentioned in the description that it is a replacement

Edited by Jos, 09 October 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[matt]

Ernesto's demonstrator page has similar cautions: http://www.parker51.com/demos.html

Collector seems a bit pale. The Canadian cap might be the best part, but not at that price and, with a US barrel, kinda reinforces the look of a pen assembled from various parts.

[vintage penman]

Parts bin special - have had several of these over the years. Still can't decide that I actually dislike the thing - but it's badly overpriced.

[penpalace]

This seller constantly sells newly created 51 pens, now what I mean by this is the pens while original have some new parts as this one does with a Ariel hood and newly created metal filler unit. His original descriptions on such units were original, rare, one of a kind, prototype, etc. He has toned things down but I'm sure there are newbies who still get confused.

[FarmBoy]

I wonder if any of the parts on the pen I linked to were actually in Janseville at the same time.  I might go as far as to say some have never been to Wisconsin.

 

FB

[FarmBoy]

I decided to see if the other board is astute as the members here...

I'll probably get told a Demi 51 barrel is the same as a Super 21 barrel.

[Reaper]

I wonder if any of the parts on the pen I linked to were actually in Janseville at the same time.  I might go as far as to say some have never been to Wisconsin.

 

FB

 

I doubt it also.. Especially with the cap being Made in Canada. 

My question the date T7 I heard a rumor that some believe the T standing for Toronto? Which if true would make the barrel Made in Canada?

[BrianMcQueen]

Please see this thread for further discussion.  http://fountainpenbo...-parker-51-djs/

[FarmBoy]

Please see this thread for further discussion.  http://fountainpenbo...-parker-51-djs/

Brian,

 

I've been told we [FPB in general] are to harsh on the eBay 51 buyers and sellers.  If I understand correctly, one of us was politely told we don't know much about 51s.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Todd

[david i]

Uhhh... what?

 

 

regards

 

david

 

Please see this thread for further discussion.  http://fountainpenbo...-parker-51-djs/

Brian,

 

I've been told we [FPB in general] are to harsh on the eBay 51 buyers and sellers.  If I understand correctly, one of us was politely told we don't know much about 51s.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Todd

[FarmBoy]

We tell it like it is here.  No sugar coating and all that.  We see a messed up faked over hyped pen and we can post it here.  Not always so in other places.

[david i]

We tell it like it is here.  No sugar coating and all that.  We see a messed up faked over hyped pen and we can post it here.  Not always so in other places.

 

It's all good

 

I was just wondering from prior post who was claiming this board all told is too harsh on... anyone. I certainly have not seen that trend.  I did remove one pathological and unsubstantiated (and frankly ludicrous)  tirade one fellow launched against a good and honorable 51 seller who does not play here much. But that was by far an exception.

 

Bluntness and honesty are welcomed here, even if not syrupy. But, I do want to encourage lively discourse. I was concerned people thought I was blocking blunt chat. The opposite of course.

 

As to whether everyone knows everything about everything... well... it does seem unlikely

 

-d

[BrianMcQueen]

I managed to read said tirade before it was removed.  What a doozy it was.

[Reaper]

 

Please see this thread for further discussion.  http://fountainpenbo...-parker-51-djs/

Brian,

 

I've been told we [FPB in general] are to harsh on the eBay 51 buyers and sellers.  If I understand correctly, one of us was politely told we don't know much about 51s.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

Todd

 

 

 

You know I agree Todd, yes their are some eBay sellers that will scam unsuspecting buyers.. The last time this board started on this one particular eBay seller.. I became interested in the so called Fake DJ so I contacted the eBay seller (who told me they were told by FPB it was a fake / after market blind cap) I told them I knew that and would purchased the set anyway, which I then made an offer which was excepted .. and by the way still the set I am presently using, .. I then explained to the seller why FPB was jumping all over there Parker 51 set and judging them so harsh! so I gave the seller some advise.. After a few messages back and forth come to find out the seller is an older woman selling her passed husbands collection of Parker 51's which she knew almost nothing about, I don't know but I think she has some nice Parkers for sale every so often, they may be a bit priced but I have purchased a few and each one my best offer was accepted and am 100% satisfied..

I have seen the Partial Demonstrators and asked the seller about it and IMMEDIATELY  I was told by the seller that it was "NOT" an authentic original Parker demonstrator.. Which I thought to be honorable of the seller to tell me before I made the purchase.. So I then made an offer which was accepted (and for much less than the asking price ), I since received my Parker 51 Partial demonstrator and it is restored correctly, so what if it is not 100% authentic.. It is 90% authentic.. and seller told me all of this before making the purchase.. and she sent me the original hood.. 

Edited by Reaper, 16 October 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[BrianMcQueen]

Reaper, the "so what" you are asking about was clearly explained to you in the last thread. But here it is again:

 

The seller obviously knows that the demonstrator hood on these partial demonstrators is not original, as shown by your statement here:

I have seen the Partial Demonstrators and asked the seller about it and IMMEDIATELY  I was told by the seller that it was "NOT" an authentic original Parker demonstrator.

 

So, even if it is an old woman selling her husband's collection, she must know SOMETHING about the pens.  Maybe her husband left good notes.

 

The "so what if it's not 100% authentic" is this: The seller makes NO MENTION of a replacement hood in the listing.  An original partial demonstrator has more collector value than a partial demonstrator made of reproduction parts.  The wording in the listing makes it seem like the pen is an ORIGINAL demonstrator. 

 

Wording from the auction -----

"It was very much part of Parkers Marketing plan that potential customers should be encouraged to look at and handle the new product as much as possible. To this end a range of pens known as demonstrators were produced. Clear Lucite was used to reveal the internal workings of the pen and provide a talking point for the salesmen. Customers were often encouraged to actually write with the pen and by using light colour ink it was possible to highlight key features of the 51 such as the collector."

----- end wording from auction.

 

So, to summarize as simply as I possibly can:

The seller knows that the parts aren't original.  The seller does not state in the auction that the parts aren't original.  The seller makes it seem like the parts ARE original.  This makes the pen SEEM more valuable, even though it is not.  This is WRONG.

[Reaper]

Reaper, the "so what" you are asking about was clearly explained to you in the last thread. But here it is again:

 

The seller obviously knows that the demonstrator hood on these partial demonstrators is not original, as shown by your statement here:

I have seen the Partial Demonstrators and asked the seller about it and IMMEDIATELY  I was told by the seller that it was "NOT" an authentic original Parker demonstrator.

 

So, even if it is an old woman selling her husband's collection, she must know SOMETHING about the pens.  Maybe her husband left good notes.

 

The "so what if it's not 100% authentic" is this: The seller makes NO MENTION of a replacement hood in the listing.  An original partial demonstrator has more collector value than a partial demonstrator made of reproduction parts.  The wording in the listing makes it seem like the pen is an ORIGINAL demonstrator. 

 

Wording from the auction -----

"It was very much part of Parkers Marketing plan that potential customers should be encouraged to look at and handle the new product as much as possible. To this end a range of pens known as demonstrators were produced. Clear Lucite was used to reveal the internal workings of the pen and provide a talking point for the salesmen. Customers were often encouraged to actually write with the pen and by using light colour ink it was possible to highlight key features of the 51 such as the collector."

----- end wording from auction.

 

So, to summarize as simply as I possibly can:

The seller knows that the parts aren't original.  The seller does not state in the auction that the parts aren't original.  The seller makes it seem like the parts ARE original.  This makes the pen SEEM more valuable, even though it is not.  This is WRONG.

 

No I totally get your point.. But my thoughts with eBay it is what it is.. if you don't know what your looking at then move on..  

[FarmBoy]

I can take this one step further.  I watched a well known ebay pen seller purchase reproduction parts at a pen show.  Those parts becaome 'experimental' and 'prototype' pens about 2 months later. 

 

And now one more, albiet a large one, step further.  I was asked to evaluate a small collection of 5 pens.  The retail on the collection would have been in the 50K range.  Yes, some serious pens, unfortunately of the 4 I examined, 3 were fake, and one such a bad example of an expensive pen I considered it parts.  The pens were purchased by a relatively new to the hobby person, the pens were sold by someone not new to pens as an investment.  That class on 'having difficult conversations' paid off.

 

So is it really ok to mis-represent pens on eBay or at a pen show?  Yeah I know, buyer beware and all that.  I also think we owe it to the hobby to call out problems when we see them.  If one person isn't suckered into buying a fake demonstrator that never existed made from parts in a parts bin and reproduction parts then we spared one person a sad day.  We shouldn't defend such practices and certainly shouldn't patronize those involved in the business.  Not to mention, if I knew someone was selling fakes, I'd not trust that some were real.

 

Best-

[david i]

I'm with Todd.  Being prepared to buy well is important.  But, "not knowing what you are looking at" as a buyer does not excuse fraud by seller.

[John Danza]

I'm with Todd.  Being prepared to buy well is important.  But, "not knowing what you are looking at" as a buyer does not excuse fraud by seller.

 

Agree 1000% here. "Buyer beware" is not an excuse for fraudulent behavior on the part of the seller. As part of my profession, I deal with the issue of fraud, waste & abuse in the medical billing world all the time. The difference between "abuse" and "fraud"? Criminal intent. Case in point right here in the thread:

 

I can take this one step further.  I watched a well known ebay pen seller purchase reproduction parts at a pen show.  Those parts becaome 'experimental' and 'prototype' pens about 2 months later. 

 

 

Todd's example is clear criminal fraud. There's nothing "squishy" about it. Todd could have reported this person to the authorities, and possibly should have.

 

Bottom line: Being an old widow (if she really was) doesn't excuse being a scammer.