46 replies to this topic

[david i]

Shot this long ago. Still, it has merit... I suppose.

Can you identify the pens and quirks?


No prize for this, as I cannot find original high res image.

regards

David

[penmanila]

nice rack of burgundy vacs!

a quick first crack, with some nuances missed (or gotten plain wrong), i'm sure:


1. vacuum filler
2. transitional “1.5th” generation pen—looks like a standard, but has a speedline filler (and cap chunklier than a streamlined standard)
3. senior maxima
4. blue diamond burgundy major—but single-jewel
5. late canadian burgundy major
6. debutante
7. very uncommon burgundy junior
8. matching junior pencil
9. burgundy sub-deb

[parkercollector.com]

1-Vacuum Filler or Vacumatic Sub Jr
2-Transitional Standard Vacumatic with Lockdown style cap and speedline body
3-A so called "Overmax". Senior Maxima Cap on a lockdown body
4-Long Major, possibly with a metal filler
5-Major, probably Canadian
6-Canadian Senior Debutante
7-Canadian Junior set
8-Possibly Canadian Junior Debutante

Veeery nice!

/Tony

[penmanila]

ha ha, missed the overmax

[parkercollector.com]

ha ha, missed the overmax

I thought you had one?

Hey Mr. Doctor, we need the correct answers!

/Tony

[penmanila]

Sadly, I have No 2 but not No 3 I recall Dr I picking one up off eBay was it a year back? (It was a bit rougher than the one in the pic.)

[david i]

I thought you had one?

Hey Mr. Doctor, we need the correct answers!

/Tony

Largely covered in your and Jose's posts. I'd offer couple tweaks and context points, but will give it another day or so first.

regards

d

[parkercollector.com]

Largely covered in your and Jose's posts. I'd offer couple tweaks and context points, but will give it another day or so first.

regards

d

[david i]

nice rack of burgundy vacs!

a quick first crack, with some nuances missed (or gotten plain wrong), i'm sure:


1. vacuum filler
2. transitional “1.5th” generation pen—looks like a standard, but has a speedline filler (and cap chunklier than a streamlined standard)
3. senior maxima
4. blue diamond burgundy major—but single-jewel
5. late canadian burgundy major
6. debutante
7. very uncommon burgundy junior
8. matching junior pencil
9. burgundy sub-deb

Per Tony:

1-Vacuum Filler or Vacumatic Sub Jr
2-Transitional Standard Vacumatic with Lockdown style cap and speedline body
3-A so called "Overmax". Senior Maxima Cap on a lockdown body
4-Long Major, possibly with a metal filler
5-Major, probably Canadian
6-Canadian Senior Debutante
7-Canadian Junior set
8-Possibly Canadian Junior Debutante

My take:

1. Size is well recognized but without formal model name. My view is the most common name for it amongst active collectors is Stubby, though different people do call it different things. It is standard girth and short, not a slender pen. This pen could have imprint of Golden Arrow, Vacuum-Filler, early Vacumatic or even later code (1938-ish) as part of the hypothesized parts-blow-out as late stamped early-style pens do appear. Key is that the pen has opaque one-piece barrel-section. Not at all common. At first peek the later style clip (on the limited pic) suggests this might be one of the late pieces.

2.What I tend to call 1.5th generation, which perhaps is no more intrinsically accurate than some other terms out there. It indeed has the cap of a Standard 1st gen pens in all respects. Interesting part is the barrel. It clearly is not a 2nd Gen barrel as it has threads of a Standard and not a 2nd Gen Major. Barrel at first peek suggest 2nd Gen at the back end as it has long blind cap and metal non-lock filler, but in fact the barrel is intermediate length between Major and Standard. It is not just a speedline body though naming these is a pain, obviously ,These show up with 1939 imprints and often star clips (which must have been used as left overs from the early Maximas). Quite uncommon. I always suggest bringing Major and Standard pens along to shows before buying blindly to exclude a Standard with replacement blind cap, though date code can help, asStandard was pretty well gone by 1939

3.Indeed the dread Overmax. It is not a Sr. Max cap on OS barrel (or 2nd gen cap on 1st gen barrel). The cap is a true OS cap in dimension and is not compatible with 2nd gen barrel (and vice versa), but has a later *style* cap-band of Maxima on it. All I've seen are red. All have late "0" date codes, too late for usual 1st Gen OS production. I've seen fewer than ten all told, well maybe ten, and have owned total of three I believe.

4. Late anomalous true 3rd generation USA-made "Long Major" with proper single jewel. This has an early 1942 date code. Burgundy Vacs were last shown in USA catalogue in 1940 though 1941 pens (still double jewel 2nd Gen) are well known. 1942 third gen pens are not well known. All are "long" for Major as expected as Major did not really become "short" again until end of 1942. I've seen major 3 red Majors and 3 "streamlined Standard" pens of this sort. Significant Vac.

5. Typical for Canada, but never made in USA "late" Burgundy Vac. See above for date of production in USA. After USA stopped Vac production in 1948, in 1950 Canada reintroduced burgundy, though slightly different red and pattern to my eye and with some of the cheaper seeming late-canadian Vac production values. This is not anomalous for Canada but it is relatively uncommon and intersesting.

6.. As for #5 but as smaller Debutante. Just read paragraph above.

7. 8. Canadian Junior set. Late production as per #5's details. Made presumably under same "late Canadian" policy as 5 and 6 above, this otherwise typical Junior (full girth, same contour as Major but different trim with double thin cap-band), this pen is far more interesting than Major or Debutante. In the USA-- and in Canada during the involved 1933-1941 run) Burgundy had been restricted to high line pens: Major, Sl Maxima, Sr. Maxima and Debutante as well as to off-catalogue intermediate line pens (2nd gen) Streamlined Standard and Streamline Slender. However, when Canada reintroduced Burgundy for the final Canadian manufacturing years (1950-3), Burgundy was used on economy line pens, the standard size Junior and the short slender Sub-Deb. There are no matching American pens to this model. For reasons unknown the economy line late Canadian burgundy pens are far more uncommon than high line. I've seen oodles of Majors. Doubt I've seen ten or fifteen Juniors total

9. Canadian Sub-deb. See notes for set in 7,8 and use of red in general in late Canadian pens as per pen 5 and 6. The economny line Sub-deb is even more uncommon in my experience than the Junior. I've seen maybe three of 'em.

regards

david

[penmanila]

thanks--was about to sell off (really cheaply) a single-jewel burgundy debutante (#6) that i picked up last year in vietnam.

[david i]

thanks--was about to sell off (really cheaply) a single-jewel burgundy debutante (#6) that i picked up last year in vietnam.

Sounds good. Send it my way

d

[amble63]

Did the opaque burgundy vac ever come with a black section or was it always the single barrel-section? I picked a burgundy that is the same length as my other two but is fatter and is either opaque or really really really ambered. Two striped jewels and a lockdown filler but the nib says Duofold 14K (d'oh!). I'd post a picture but all my efforts to take a good picture today came to naught. It's the one on the bottom.



Edited: to add a better picture

Attached Files

•  8363 - 2 burgundies July 2011 smaller.jpg   138.42KB   14 downloads

[david i]

Did the opaque burgundy vac ever come with a black section or was it always the single barrel-section? I picked a burgundy that is the same length as my other two but is fatter and is either opaque or really really really ambered. Two striped jewels and a lockdown filler but the nib says Duofold 14K (d'oh!). I'd post a picture but all my efforts to take a good picture today came to naught.

With one caveat (with Vacs there's always that darned one caveat!) the answer should be... no.

edit: My response was vague. I meant to say that one would not expect a black section on a single piece barrel-section early pen.

The basic evolution of Vac manufacture was that first there were single-piece barrel-section assemblies which meant that the color would match barrel to section. Early pens of course were opaque. Tragic is the number of Vacs destroyed by would-be repairmen who tried to force "open" the section from the barrel

The one piece arrangement also made it more difficult of course to bump out the nib from behind. Think about that

Later the barrel-section became a two piece affair, with the section removable and connected to to the barrel via threads. These tend to have transparent barrels, also a later development in vacdom.

But, things can get fuzzy at the edges. While I have never seen a one-piece typical transparent Vac (and there is a caveat to this as well), I have seen what seem to be opaque barrels with removable section, at least I vaguely recall that. IF that's the case, then a replacement section (in black) can be done, yielding a black section on an opaque pen. However, such pen still should have very early imprint, either with the "pat" mark but no date code (indicating first half of 1934 or earlier production) or perhaps a 1934 code at worst (as I don't know with certainty when opaque barrels were phased out... we would need to just keep examining pens to see). If your pen has later date code, it likely did not start out opaque (and yeah, there is a caveat even to that... the so called 1937-9 "parts blow out", but that's another story). At least, putting a fiber optic light up the barrel might help determine.

The caveat to "no single piece barrel-section with transparency"?

The so called Ripley Vacs (from the ad) with first attempt at barrel clarity. Plastic unique to model, wide clarity stripes, cap burgundy and "blue" striped. All have black section. Some of the Vacuum Fillers of this sort I've seen appear to have one piece barrel-section. How can this be? My guess would be the black area was solvent welded to the striped area (similar lamination process perhaps) before the pen was lathed into shape. I've never seen a conventional Vacuum Filler or Vacumatic show this process though.

There, does that confuse things enough?

regards

david

[david i]

Just in case you've never seen a "Ripley's" Vacuum-Filler

regards

david

[amble63]

But, things can get fuzzy at the edges. While I have never seen a one-piece typical transparent Vac (and there is a caveat to this as well), I have seen what seem to be opaque barrels with removable section, at least I vaguely recall that. IF that's the case, then a replacement section (in black) can be done, yielding a black section on an opaque pen. However, such pen still should have very early imprint, either with the "pat" mark but no date code (indicating first half of 1934 or earlier production) or perhaps a 1934 code at worst (as I don't know with certainty when opaque barrels were phased out... we would need to just keep examining pens to see). If your pen has later date code, it likely did not start out opaque (and yeah, there is a caveat even to that... the so called 1937-9 "parts blow out", but that's another story). At least, putting a fiber optic light up the barrel might help determine.

Yes, colour me confused. The imprint is very faint. It's "Made in Canada" followed by "Vacumatic" followed by "Pat No" (I think - very very faint). So far as I can tell, there is no discernible date. Underneath "Vacumatic", it says "Other Patents Pending." Does that shed any light on things? It seems consistent with what you say about the opaque pens but I don't have the eye to tell the difference between opaque and ambered. I should mention that the colour generally leans more to a darker, brownish tint (suggesting ambering?) than my other burgundies, which are truer to a pure burgundy colour.

[amble63]

Just in case you've never seen a "Ripley's" Vacuum-Filler

regards

david

oh wow, there you go with that eye candy again. Nice!

Anna

[david i]

I have edited my initial response noting that you gave something of an either-or and my "no" response didn't specify which of your options I was addressing. Key point was that- save for the Ripley pen and then only maybe- one would expect a single-piece barrel section early pen to have matching section.

Yes, colour me confused. The imprint is very faint. It's "Made in Canada" followed by "Vacumatic" followed by "Pat No" (I think - very very faint). So far as I can tell, there is no discernible date. Underneath "Vacumatic", it says "Other Patents Pending." Does that shed any light on things? It seems consistent with what you say about the opaque pens but I don't have the eye to tell the difference between opaque and ambered. I should mention that the colour generally leans more to a darker, brownish tint (suggesting ambering?) than my other burgundies, which are truer to a pure burgundy colour.

Confusion and Vacumatic collecting really do go hand in hand. There of course are sweeping basics and generalizations that can cover the overwhelming majority of pens found. But with a huge company, manufacture in more than one country (with variation in the rules), with pens made apparently for niche markets, off catalogue, with "parts blow-outs", with frequent evolution of trim... there are many nuances to give collectors fits. Of course all these things present opportunities too for the advanced collectors.

The Canada manufacture changes the game a bit.

While High LIne Vacs through early 1939 have matching gripping sections on USA pens, all Canadian pens, once the early single-piece barrel-section era passed, have black sections independent of Line. This argues again that your pen is post single-piece. BTW- should be easy to tell. Look for the seam, as opposed to seeing threading lines run onto the barrel for the triple threads with no division line. A loupe should help. That said, none of this wholly excludes the highly unlikely (barring a Ripley style pen, never seen TBOMK with Canadian imprints) case that black was welded to stripes before the pen was lathed to give a single-piece pen with non-matching section. I grossly suspect your pen just is ambered unto opaqueness.

regards

david

[amble63]

I doubt I will ever reach the stage of advanced collector but I do enjoy trying to sort out the variations among my (extremely) modest collection. Thank you for your assistance. We really should call you Dr. Detective Isaacson or Detective Dr. Isaacson.

Regards,
Anna

[david i]

I doubt I will ever reach the stage of advanced collector but I do enjoy trying to sort out the variations among my (extremely) modest collection. Thank you for your assistance. We really should call you Dr. Detective Isaacson or Detective Dr. Isaacson.

Regards,
Anna

It's my pleasure. Thank you for posting pens that make me think more about Vacs

And... do keep posting. The key to survival of baby boards such as this is the presentation of content.

regards

david

[Baz666]

(snip)

And... do keep posting. The key to survival of baby boards such as this is the presentation of content.

regards

david

Hi
In that case, please allow me to present my "Ripley`s" content.



Regards
Paul.